Discrete Derivatives: Types & Uses

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter yetar
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Discrete
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the types and applications of discrete derivatives, exploring various models and methods used in numerical analysis and computational mechanics. Participants inquire about more sophisticated forms of discrete derivatives beyond basic definitions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks about the types of discrete derivatives available.
  • Another participant suggests that the expression \(\frac{a_{n+1}-a_{n}}{(n+1)-n}=a_{n+1}-a_{n}\) qualifies as a discrete derivative.
  • There is a proposal for a more sophisticated discrete derivative involving a weighted combination of sequence values.
  • A participant mentions the relevance of discretization schemes like leap-frog in numerical methods.
  • One participant inquires about Differential Quadratures, indicating a lack of familiarity with the method.
  • Another participant discusses the approximation of derivatives using Taylor expansions, suggesting that higher-order approximations are possible with sufficient data points.
  • A suggestion is made to explore "finite calculus" or "umbral calculus" and references to forward/backward difference operators and factorial powers are mentioned.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the existence of basic discrete derivatives and express interest in more complex forms. However, there is no consensus on the most effective or commonly used models, and multiple viewpoints regarding the sophistication of discrete derivatives remain present.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about the applicability of discrete derivatives and the conditions under which certain approximations hold. Some mathematical steps and definitions are not fully resolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in numerical methods, computational mechanics, and advanced mathematical concepts related to discrete calculus.

yetar
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
What types of discrete derative are there?

Thanks in advance.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Well, given a sequence [itex]a_{n}[/itex] the expression [itex]\frac{a_{n+1}-a_{n}}{(n+1)-n}=a_{n+1}-a_{n}[/itex] ought to count as one, agreed?
 
Yes, I agree.
However, I want to know if there are more sophisticated discrete derative which are commonly used.
Maybe:
[itex](0.25*a_{n+2}+0.75*a_{n+1}-0.75*a_{n-1}-0.25*a_{n-1})/2[/itex]
Are there any other models of discrete deratives?
 
Last edited:
Well, if you are interested in discretization schemes like leap-frog and that sort of thing, you should look into numerical maths/computational mechanics books.

Alternatively, I'm sure our army of PF'ers will come along soon enough to supply you with more info.
 
What is Differential Quadratures?
 
It is a numerical method I haven't learned about. :frown:
 
yetar said:
Yes, I agree.
However, I want to know if there are more sophisticated discrete derative which are commonly used.
Maybe:
[itex](0.25*a_{n+2}+0.75*a_{n+1}-0.75*a_{n-1}-0.25*a_{n-1})/2[/itex]
Are there any other models of discrete deratives?

Well, by comparing Taylor expansions you can prove that the sequence you posted is an approximation to the first derivative that is correct to at least second order, contrary to [itex](a_{n+1}-a_{n})/h[/itex], which is only first-order.

With a little more insight you can convince yourself that any derivative of a smooth function can be approximated to any order, if only you have access to the values of the function at sufficiently many points.
 
Do a search for "finite calculus" also called "umbral calculus" the forward/backward difference operators and rising/falling factorial powers are also akin to the topic, an excellect reference is the book "Concrete Mathematics" by Graham, Knuth, and Patashnik.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K