Do EM waves have negative frequency inside negative-index materials?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter jeast
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Em waves
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of negative frequencies in electromagnetic (EM) waves, particularly within the context of negative-index materials. Participants explore the implications of the refractive index on wave frequency and the nature of frequency in both classical and quantum frameworks.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the frequency of light, ##\omega##, is determined by the refractive index, ##n##, such that a negative refractive index leads to a negative frequency.
  • Others argue that negative frequencies can occur in various contexts, including modulation of signals, suggesting that negative frequencies are not exclusive to negative-index materials.
  • A participant mentions that local relativistic fields inherently possess both positive and negative frequency modes, referencing the decomposition of free EM waves.
  • Another viewpoint states that classically, the distinction between positive and negative frequencies is not meaningful, as EM waves are represented as superpositions of both frequency components.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance and implications of negative frequencies in EM waves. There is no consensus on whether negative frequencies are a valid concept in this context, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about the nature of frequency and the mathematical representation of EM waves, which may not be universally accepted or defined in the same way by all participants.

jeast
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
The speed of light in a vacuum, ##c##, is defined as positive.

The refractive index of a material, ##n##, can be positive or negative.

The dispersion relation for light inside the material is given by

$$\omega=\frac{c}{n}|\mathbf{k}|.$$
The magnitude of the wavevector, ##|\mathbf{k}|##, must be positive by definition therefore the sign of the wave frequency ##\omega## is determined solely by the refractive index ##n##.

Thus if the refractive index ##n## is negative then the frequency ##\omega## is negative.

Is this reasoning correct?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
jeast said:
The speed of light in a vacuum, ##c##, is defined as positive.

The refractive index of a material, ##n##, can be positive or negative.

The dispersion relation for light inside the material is given by

$$\omega=\frac{c}{n}|\mathbf{k}|.$$
The magnitude of the wavevector, ##|\mathbf{k}|##, must be positive by definition therefore the sign of the wave frequency ##\omega## is determined solely by the refractive index ##n##.

Thus if the refractive index ##n## is negative then the frequency ##\omega## is negative.

Is this reasoning correct?
You very often get negative frequencies even in vacuum, so sure you can have them in materials too. For example, when you take a signal at baseband and then you modulate it, with e.g. a ##\cos## carrier, the result has both positive frequency and negative frequency components.
And with a quadrature transmitter and detector you can even have a purely negative frequency signal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71 and turo_loler
Any local relativistic field has always wavemmodes with both positive and negative frequencies. The decomposition of free em. waves in plane-wave modes reads (in radiation gauge)
$$\vec{A}(t,\vec{x})=\sum_{\lambda \in \{1,-1\}} \int_{\mathbb{R}^3} \frac{\mathrm{d}^3 k}{(2 \pi)^3} \left [A_{\lambda}(\vec{k}) \vec{\epsilon}_{\lambda}(\vec{k}) \exp(-\mathrm{i} \omega_k t + \mathrm{i} \vec{k} \cdot \vec{x}) + A^*_{\lambda}(\vec{k}) \vec{\epsilon}_{\lambda}^*(\vec{k}) \exp[+\mathrm{i} \omega_k t -\mathrm{i} \vec{k} \cdot \vec{x} \right].$$
Here ##\vec{\epsilon}_{\lambda}(\vec{k})## are orthogonal to ##\vec{k}## and helicitity eigenstates (referring to left- and right-circular polarization) and ##\omega_k=c |\vec{k}|##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DrClaude and Dale
Classically, the distinction between positive and negative frequencies makes no sense as an electromagnetic wave is always a superposition ##a\exp(i(\mathbf{kr}-\omega t))+a^*\exp(-i(\mathbf{kr}-\omega t))##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Demystifier and vanhees71
It seems this is a good time to close this thread and put the discussion of negative indices and frequencies to rest.

Thank you all for contributing here.

Jedi
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: berkeman

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K