Do scientist eventually give up on the ultimate truth?

[Huckleberry]

Huckleberry has gone of the deep end.



= "who is identical to the orderly harmony of what exists".

As modern science has shown, consciousness is a material phenomena, so immaterial beings cannot have a consciousness.

Einstein's God = "orderly harmony of what exists".

Einstein's God = "who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists".

It seems to me what you are saying is that to reveal something is the same as being the thing revealed. That is not always true.

Again, you are seperating Einstein's idea of consciousness from the universe in order to make a claim that he was atheist; something he expressly claimed he was not. It's not only dishonest, it's disrespectful.

 

[Kurdt]

These debates on whether Einstein was a theist are not tend to go nowhere fast.

I think some scientists get frustrated at their inability to solve all the problems they want to. It doesn't mean there isn't an answer because often later generations of scientists will solve that problem with the extra information they have available. Perhaps its ego that leads them to say there can't be an answer because they can't find it.

 

[Evo]

I agree Kurdt, how can someone read Einstein's own quotes and not understand? Einstein considered himself agnostic, but tended to lean more towards atheism.

“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.

“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to Beatrice Frohlich, December 17, 1952; Einstein Archive 59-797; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 217.

“It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”

Albert Einstein, 1947; from Banesh Hoffmann, Albert Einstein Creator and Rebel, New York: New American Library, 1972, p. 95.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_einstein.html

 

[Moridin]

Einstein's God = "orderly harmony of what exists".

Einstein's God = "who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists".

It seems to me what you are saying is that to reveal something is the same as being the thing revealed. That is not always true.

Again, you are seperating Einstein's idea of consciousness from the universe in order to make a claim that he was atheist; something he expressly claimed he was not. It's not only dishonest, it's disrespectful.

He said he was an atheist, since he did not believe in a personal god. Can you read? You are the one being pathological dishonest here.

 

[Cyrus]

I think its fair to say Einstein went back and forth on this issue, as he was not able to come to a concrete decision.

 

[dst]

Einstein decides whether our creator exists

 

[Evo]

I think its fair to say Einstein went back and forth on this issue, as he was not able to come to a concrete decision.

He was a smart man, stating he was atheist would have created a media scandal, not to mention condemnation from religious groups, which happened to some extent for his constant repetition of not believing in a religious god. But when he says that he's agnostic, that he doesn't believe in the god described by religion, why can't people accept it? It's not arguable, it's in his letters.

 

[Huckleberry]

He said he was an atheist, since he did not believe in a personal god..

No, he said he was not an atheist, and he did not believe in a personal God. The two concepts are not exclusive.

I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things. 26

-Albert Einstein

The only flip-flopping I am sure of is which branch of theism he preferred. In the above quote he doesn't consider himself a pantheist. In another quote he does. The rest of his views appear to be consistent throughout his lifetime. His agnostic position refers to the idea of a personal God, something he never believed in. I have yet to see him describe himself as an atheist of any kind.

I've seen a lot of quotes using what Einstein thought God wasn't as proofs of what he thought God was. Yet, every time I find a question that asks him specifically what God is I find an answer like this.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. 20

 

[moe darklight]

It seems to me that this is pretty much as far as this argument can go, given just his public words and no personal knowledge of the man. Whether his earlier references to a form of non-personal God were a means of not causing a scandal, or whether he did in fact believe in a God, I don't think any of us here can say for sure.

All I see is that his tone did change with time and that his later quotations (such as those you've posted, from the 40's-50's) are more explicitly agnostic and atheistic.

 

[Evo]

It seems to me that this is pretty much as far as this argument can go, given just his public words and no personal knowledge of the man. Whether his earlier references to a form of non-personal God were a means of not causing a scandal, or whether he did in fact believe in a God, I don't think any of us here can say for sure.

All I see is that his tone did change with time and that his later quotations (such as those you've posted, from the 40's-50's) are more explicitly agnostic and atheistic.

And on that note, the thread is closing.