Is Destiny Just an Excuse for Unforeseen Failures and Successes?

[HIGHLYTOXIC]

People say that you cannot change your destiny..It is simply inevitable...U just cannot change it..

So, if you are preparing for a very simple exam for 10 years, but destiny has it that you will never clear it, so will you not??

Does this mean, that destiny actually comes into play after the events?


Picture this ::

You are a very very healthy young man with no diseases at all, you do not smoke, do not drink at all, and follow a perfectly healthy routine, and then you suddenly have a total liver failure..Is this destiny?


People will say "Poor young man, appeared to be healthy, but it was his fate.."


Isnt Destiny something designed to explain unforseen failures & successes?

What are your views?

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

That's probably what Destiny is for many people. I'm not quite sure where I stand myself. Some people believe everything is pre-determined and is therefore; destiny. The perdition of the weather could be looked at as looking into the future, to see destiny.

If destiny did not exist the future could not be foreseen, only guessed. Destiny may be set in stone and we only experience the illusion of free will. Which wouldn't really matter considering we think we're making the choices anyway.

I don't really have a solid stance on the issue. It's interesting of course, but doesn't have much significance even if it exists or doesn't. (At the moment of course.)

 

[The_Thinker]

Actually, it is true destiney does exist. But the funny thing is whatever you do, that is your destiney, if you already knew your destiney and took a diffrent course just to avoid it. Then that would be your destiney. See, what i mean, whatever and i mean whatever you do is your destiney, it's predetermined because no matter what you do, eventually you end up doing something and that well is your destiney.

 

[motai]

Actually, it is true destiney does exist. But the funny thing is whatever you do, that is your destiney, if you already knew your destiney and took a diffrent course just to avoid it. Then that would be your destiney. See, what i mean, whatever and i mean whatever you do is your destiney, it's predetermined because no matter what you do, eventually you end up doing something and that well is your destiney.

Sort of like the question about free will, "Are our choices already made for us because of who we are?"

 

[Evo]

"destiny" and "fate" are words used whenever something unexpected happens. Nothing is predetermined. We don't have control over everything, but that doesn't mean that everything that will happen was predetermined.

If a meteor falls from the sky and hits me on the head, obviously, I have no control over the meteor, but that doesn't mean anything was predestined to happen. It's called an ACCIDENT. If I die of a heart attack tomorrow, I have no control over it, but it's not predestined either, it means I have an undetected problem.

 

[merak]

"destiny" and "fate" are words used whenever something unexpected happens. Nothing is predetermined. We don't have control over everything, but that doesn't mean that everything that will happen was predetermined.

If a meteor falls from the sky and hits me on the head, obviously, I have no control over the meteor, but that doesn't mean anything was predestined to happen. It's called an ACCIDENT. If I die of a heart attack tomorrow, I have no control over it, but it's not predestined either, it means I have an undetected problem.

Evo.. I've spent more time thinking about this question than any other.
for most of my life I've held to the deterministic model of science.I'm more torn over it, than asking the god question.I see events unfold where a "lot" of "things" had to happen in order for said event to take place.one can follow the time line of these things and see the cause and effect to the eventual out come.

there have been times where I was able to manipulate events to reach the desired outcome. but did i really? was the out come inevitable ? was I destined to interfere to reach the out come I wanted?

one could go as far to say,that (at) the big bang app 13 billion years ago the time line of events that led to me "being here "today, typing a post to you in this room, was my destiny..the question is are they really just "words" like you say to explain unexpected events or a time line of events (cause and effect) that really do mean something. I'm not as certain as you.

if the meteor did fall on you that you had no control over.could one not trace the events that put you in the location to be hit. a lot of things would have had to happen to put you in harms way..

 

[Evo]

if the meteor did fall on you that you had no control over.could one not trace the events that put you in the location to be hit. a lot of things would have had to happen to put you in harms way..

I just see them as a series of "random" events, not predetermined.

I'm not saying I'm right by any means, this is my opinion. It makes more sense to me that things are random. This means that I can knowingly interfere with a series of events to change the outcome, if I have the opportunity.

I would rather live in a world of random events where I have meaning than in a dismal predetermined world where I am just a pawn.

Life is too short to worry about these things, IMHO. If I get hit by a meteor, what difference does it make if it was random or predeterimed?

 

[Evo]

if the meteor did fall on you that you had no control over.could one not trace the events that put you in the location to be hit. a lot of things would have had to happen to put you in harms way..

I just see them as a series of "random" events, not predetermined.

I'm not saying I'm right by any means, this is my opinion. It makes more sense to me that things are random. This means that I can knowingly interfere with a series of events to change the outcome, if I have the opportunity.

I would rather live in a world of random events where I have meaning than in a dismal predetermined world where I am just a pawn.

Life is too short to worry about these things, IMHO. If I get hit by a meteor, what difference does it make if it was random or predeterimed?

 

[LENIN]

Do you believe in destiny?

NO!

 

[force5]

Do you believe in destiny?

YES!

 

[olde drunk]

Evo.. I've spent more time thinking about this question than any other.
for most of my life I've held to the deterministic model of science.I'm more torn over it, than asking the god question.I see events unfold where a "lot" of "things" had to happen in order for said event to take place.one can follow the time line of these things and see the cause and effect to the eventual out come.

there have been times where I was able to manipulate events to reach the desired outcome. but did i really? was the out come inevitable ? was I destined to interfere to reach the out come I wanted?

one could go as far to say,that (at) the big bang app 13 billion years ago the time line of events that led to me "being here "today, typing a post to you in this room, was my destiny..the question is are they really just "words" like you say to explain unexpected events or a time line of events (cause and effect) that really do mean something. I'm not as certain as you.

if the meteor did fall on you that you had no control over.could one not trace the events that put you in the location to be hit. a lot of things would have had to happen to put you in harms way..

merak: I think that it is more important to understand this issue than anything else we do in this physical world.

a wise man i once read said that there was no coincidence in the universe. his meaning was that things don't 'just' happen. rather, we make them happen.

i come from the perspective that our present is a product of a remembered past and an expected future. all probable life events exist and are valid. we choose to actualize the physical life thread we wish to experience.

IMHO, our spiritual self decides to be born into this world under a particular set of circumstance to satisfy one or many desires. i do not see them as glorious or altruistic, but something(s) that I want to experience or learn.

now, as life unfolds, it is highly probable that these goals change and expand. the only fate or destiny that exist is the ability to achive the goals that we originally established. unfortunately, i think that the universe is a mutha. if we experience or learn what we set out for, our unconscious reaches out and sez, 'damn that was easy, now what?'. right on cue, mutha nature (via our unconscious agreement) sez, 'did you ever think about trying it a different way?'. shazam! off we go into another adventure.

i see us with total freewill (within the rules of physicality) to experience what we wish. on the broader level (spiritual?) i think the rules expand and so does our freewill. it is a constant growth of awareness.

it is my contention that we create our reality in more ways than we can understand. being in touch with our inner selves helps manage (control) our energies and power. the power is probably contained in our belief system. we experience our reality based on what we believe, which directs our power.

to me, we are co-creators of the mass reality. our mass experience is a reflection of the beliefs of all the people.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[kcballer21]

OK, assuming we are defining destiny as determinism (as by nature) then I disagree with pretty much all of you, but guess what, I can't prove it and neither can you!

I hope Zantra doesn't mind but I had been looking for a way to express the condition of this war that cannot be won (except maybe for a deeper understanding of our physical universe, if that is possibe), so I borrowed this quote...

It's a stalemate, as it's been proven time and time again. For every point that can be presented to support the case, a counterpoint can be made for the other side. If determinism is true, then free will is a carefully constructed illusion. If free will is true, you cannot prove that you would have made a different choice, given that all events are known. Blah blah blah...

My gut feeling tells me that free will isn't so free, but I try to keep an open mind.

 

[TENYEARS]

If we went back into history 1000 years and were watchers. That which is non relative only looking out with no interaction with the relative. We would start the motion at that point 1000 years ago, would anything change? If we did it an infinite number of times, would any act in all of history change? Would I have typed this any differently? There is a god, but do you think that god ever predestined anything(made a decision that the transistor would be made in 1960 or that the grand canyon would be made? I can sometimes see the future, and yet that future was never decided, how can this be? If you want answers in life I know one person who knows the answer to every question in universe. You also know this person.

 

[merak]

Life is too short to worry about these things, IMHO. If I get hit by a meteor, what difference does it make if it was random or predeterimed?

it really doesn't...

The only way it would matter(to me) is if ,i could look back after the fact,when meteor killed me. and see some dumb thing that i unknowingly did to put my self in harms way. its likely I'd be pee o'ed at my self, knowing that.. 'I'... did my own self in. hopefully we cannot look back.

 

[proteus]

destiny does exist. the proof is that we cannot change the past. i believe that the past is as the future is as the present. they are just moments. we simply are restricted to viewing them in one order.

 

[Deeviant]

I question weather it matters or not. Who cares if you believe in destiny. What will it change, what will it effect? I ask not to offend but to shed light on the matter with a different perspective.


It DOES NOT MATTER if you believe in destiny unless you some how can know your destiny. Since anybody claiming to know their own or somebody else's destiny is mostly likely either a crackpot or guessing, I don't think we are ever in danger of destiny actually mattering.

The net effect: If you can't know your destiny, you do not have a destiny and you life is left to chance.

 

[Gerinski]

I posted a thread in Philosophy of Science called "Block Time interpretation", looking at what science can tell us about this question.

It seems to follow from relativity theory that Proteus is right: past present and future are just subjective labels that we attach to "already-existing" events.
However quantum theory seems to tell us the opposite, that the future is undetermined.
The only scientific way out I know is multiverse theory, in which all possible futures already exist, but it's unpredictable in which one we will live

 

[Iacchus32]

Isn't "destiny" just another word for "future?" In which case maybe what we need to ask is whether free will exists or not and, how that affects our future?

 

[olde drunk]

I posted a thread in Philosophy of Science called "Block Time interpretation", looking at what science can tell us about this question.

It seems to follow from relativity theory that Proteus is right: past present and future are just subjective labels that we attach to "already-existing" events.
However quantum theory seems to tell us the opposite, that the future is undetermined.
The only scientific way out I know is multiverse theory, in which all possible futures already exist, but it's unpredictable in which one we will live

as you state, the past, present and future are 'already existing' events. I submit that all probable past, present and future events are also valid.

the exact moments of past, present and future that we experience depends on the moment we focus our consciousness upon. this, IMHO, explains the multi-verse and how we can accept QT's dimensions and parallel worlds.

an oversimplification: we enter a theater multi-plex. one is showing the past, another, present and the third the future. we focus our attention on the period we wish to view and/or experience. within the showing we can also select the act and scene.

this analogy can be expanded into a larger multi-plex that includes many lives with a separate complex for each life. helps view reincarnation.

to me, time is needed for our physical brains to understand and fully experience the physical reality.

again, the only destiny, is that we can choose our lives and experience. within that choice, we have certain expectations that can be sensed as destiny.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Psychon919]

To each of you who are partaking in this discussion I want to say this:

I believe in the Three Laws of Thermodynamics, and if any of you can remember the topic of Entropy then you know that our lives is that plus the Multiple Worlds Theory proposed by Dr. Hugh Everett, III in 1957.

When one understands these two topics then the thoughts on Destiny become all too clear. Do I believe in destiny? Yes and No. Let me explain.

You see, All life is a multifacet entropy system with mutiple permutations of actions given to us from the time that we are born to the time we die.

Think of it as a 3-D Diamond, from the time that you are born, most if not all of the options are given to you to choose and act upon. However, as you get older those options gradually began to limit themselves until the point of death, whenever that is.

Neverthess, All discarded options and decisions are carried out in parallel universes where your dopplegangers exercise and receive the consequences of those actions, positve or negative. Therefore all is not lost.

In fact, there are numerous theoretical physicists and psychologists who are swaying toward the possibility that when we dream somewhat "realisitic" dreams (not lucid dreams) that we are, in fact, entering these other universes.

Which causes one to ask:

When our counterparts sleep, do they enter our universe as a phantom-like viewer viewing our lives as we possibly view theirs?

Such a question causes one to ask about the true nature of reality and its many forms.

So is Destiny an issue or player in our everyday lives? Only when our options have been severely limited due to previous decisions. Other than that, it is only one of many options that we can choose from.

We still have choices and the perception of Free Will continues forward.

I hope that answers your question, HIGHLYTOXIC.

Psychon919 out.

 

[Philocrat]

I question weather it matters or not. Who cares if you believe in destiny. What will it change, what will it effect? I ask not to offend but to shed light on the matter with a different perspective.


It DOES NOT MATTER if you believe in destiny unless you some how can know your destiny. Since anybody claiming to know their own or somebody else's destiny is mostly likely either a crackpot or guessing, I don't think we are ever in danger of destiny actually mattering.

The net effect: If you can't know your destiny, you do not have a destiny and you life is left to chance.

Yes, destiny does exist and very much controllable...and of course, only if you know how. Over the years I calculated destiny using the only calculator left by nature - my brain - and what I found was deeply disturbing...but in a very nice way. I found out that when its comes to the notion of 'SURVIVAL OF LIFE FORMS' we share the same fate as our so-called 'Lesser life forms', and above all that this sharing of the same survival fate with lesser creatures is not necessarily externally imposed but rather it's almost entirely 'self-imposed'. We are the architects of our own destiny, given that we claim that we are structurally and functionally better than lesser creatures. This problem results from the notion of our general attitude to causal and relational progress in general. We simply refuse to structurally and functionally progress in the right sort of way. I don't know how it is in your own part of the world, but in general people and institutions are constantly insisting that we must not intervene with nature...that we should sit back, cross our legs and wait for nature to take care of everything. The way you feel about this subject is self-explanatory and quite understandable if this way of thinking and acting prevails.

Personally, I am quite prepared to wait with everyone else and just sleep away and just hope for the best...but not without constantly drawing everyone's attention to the fact that it does not have to be that way. We do have the tool to take control of our destiny in a very collective way, even if it means that in the end we all went our own ways or everything derailed into a depthless and senseless oblivion.

 

[Deeviant]

Yes, destiny does exist and very much controllable...and of course, only if you know how. Over the years I calculated destiny using the only calculator left by nature - my brain - and what I found was deeply disturbing...but in a very nice way. I found out that when its comes to the notion of 'SURVIVAL OF LIFE FORMS' we share the same fate as our so-called 'Lesser life forms', and above all that this sharing of the same survival fate with lesser creatures is not necessarily externally imposed but rather it's almost entirely 'self-imposed'. We are the architects of our own destiny, given that we claim that we are structurally and functionally better than lesser creatures. This problem results from the notion of our general attitude to causal and relational progress in general. We simply refuse to structurally and functionally progress in the right sort of way. I don't know how it is in your own part of the world, but in general people and institutions are constantly insisting that we must not intervene with nature...that we should sit back, cross our legs and wait for nature to take care of everything. The way you feel about this subject is self-explanatory and quite understandable if this way of thinking and acting prevails.

Personally, I am quite prepared to wait with everyone else and just sleep away and just hope for the best...but not without constantly drawing everyone's attention to the fact that it does not have to be that way. We do have the tool to take control of our destiny in a very collective way, even if it means that in the end we all went our own ways or everything derailed into a depthless and senseless oblivion.

Philocrat, you are using the word Destiny as a replacement for Future, and of course, in that context, it certainly does exist. Does destiny exist in the spirit in which this thread was started? No, it does not. Of coure we have the ability to effect the future and yes I wholeheartedly believe we should strive for a positive future, or as you call it, destiny.

 

[Philocrat]

Even if the human life form was accidentally generated without an intellgent designer as it is often claimed, does that automatically issue a warrant for us to do nothing...and just merely watch? As I have said everywhere, this amounts to what I call 'DANGEROUS CONTENMENT' with proscribed terminal consequences. Look around you and you will see this principle of Dangerous Contentment operate everywhere...from the naive claim by some people that we are alone in the universe, even with the data that science provides us, to our general attitudes to dealling with natural disasters. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out the rest.

 

[Philocrat]

Philocrat, you are using the word Destiny as a replacement for Future, and of course, in that context, it certainly does exist. Does destiny exist in the spirit in which this thread was started? No, it does not. Of coure we have the ability to effect the future and yes I wholeheartedly believe we should strive for a positive future, or as you call it, destiny.

Not necessarily, for things enveloped in different time scales could naively lay claims to have having destiny. I magine things enveloped in micro-time scales claiming to be continuing and having a destiny. Destiny only makes sense if you can consciously control it by doing something about the way you are at the structural engineering level. And I think that any organism that is conscious or has some form of self-engineering intelligence can design and control its own destiny.

 

[Deeviant]

Not necessarily, for things enveloped in different time scales could naively lay claims to have having destiny. I magine things enveloped in micro-time scales claiming to be continuing and having a destiny. Destiny only makes sense if you can consciously control it by doing something about the way you are at the structural engineering level. And I think that any organism that is conscious or has some form of self-engineering intelligence can design and control its own destiny.

Once again, your using the word "Destiny" as the word "future".

"Destiny only makes sense if you can consciously control it."

If you can control your destiny, then its is not destiny you are controlling for destiny by definition is unchanging, it is your future. Your ideas are in agreement with this but yet your words are not.

I very much side with you in your view of our complacent approach to our future, it is an idea that I think about quite often and is at the centerpiece of my philosophy. I put much thought into how one person, namely myself, can assist the human race in surviving themselves.

 

[pmb_phy]

Actually, it is true destiney does exist. But the funny thing is whatever you do, that is your destiney, if you already knew your destiney and took a diffrent course just to avoid it. Then that would be your destiney. See, what i mean, whatever and i mean whatever you do is your destiney, it's predetermined because no matter what you do, eventually you end up doing something and that well is your destiney.

That is not what the term destiny means. Whether true destiny exists or not cannot be known by us. It is knowledge that we have no access to. Destiny means "predetermined" and typically refers to that which you have no influence over. You can redefine the term to fit your preferences, but that is what it refers to.

We may think that we have 100% control over our lives but that is an illusion. One way we have no control over is that we are born a certain way, i.e. each of us has our own unique set of talents. I can't choose to have an IQ of 200. I'd be nifty if I did. I can't choose to be 6'5" tall. I can't choose not to have fallen arches.

I had a reality check on this a few years back. I was unemployed for a bit and I was starting to get some awesome interviews at some awesome places. Everything was looking very good. That night when I got home from that first awesome interview I was told I had Acute Myloid Leukemia (AML) which is typically a death sentance (at that time it had a 14% 5 year survival rate). That's about as out of my hands as my life and future could have been. Destiny? I dunno. Do I have control over these thing? No friggin way. Case in point - One might now say "Well that's so rare that we really don't consider that etc." That gives the impression that, yes, while something bad happened, I did live through it. But it doesn't mean that this kind of bad "luck" will dominate my life, right? Well this summer I decided that it was the right time to return to the work place. All the after effects of the AML were under control for the most part and the job market was picking up. So just as I started job hunting I got another wicked awesome interview at a place I've been dying to work. I got home from the interview and realized that all the walking I did that day to go to and from the place from the subway really did no good for my back, which I slightly pulled a few days before but which felt fine before the interview. So here I am, ready to return to the work place and had an awesome interview. Sound familiar? This was the beginning of hell. I turned out that this was the beginning of a herniated disk. My summer was blown. I can't really walk. I've been at levels of pain that I never knew existed (and I've had 8 bone marrow biopsies so I know pain) and I can't even see the end of this right now. I may need surgery etc.

The reason for that silly/whole pathetic story is to point out how little control we have over our lives and how really rare events cannot be dismissedas if they won't occur. I mean, what are the odds that my two really awesome, once in a lifetime interviews would end up that way? One ending in AML and the next ending in a herniated disk? A gazzilion to one?? When something like this happens its extremely hard not to think that my future is pre-determined.

Pete

 

[Tom McCurdy]

Destiny

Nope...
Only form of destiny
I would consider would be

If somehow something knew everything at one point in time and knew the forumlas of everything and could therby predict every event to come. A form of predestination which keenly hops over quantum fluxuations, however you are assuming you kn3w everying at one point in time so u already did sometyhing quantumly impossible

 

[Gerinski]

Do you think we will ever find a scientifically proved answer to the question:
is the future determined (even if unpredictable) or not ?

IF we would scientifically get solid arguments answering "yes" (determined but, I stress once again, even if maybe unpredictable by us), how would that change the course of human history?

If the proofs were just theoretical (i.e. imagine that we will succeed in developing a wonderful TOE accurate to all our tests, but too bad, it requires that the future be determined), would we really be humble enough to swallow the fact?

What do you think about the difference in finding out that it's determined but unpredictable, or that it's open (not determined)? to some people (such as deeviant) they say that as long as it's unpredictable, for all what matters it's the same as it not being determined. what do you think?

Hmmmm, maybe 4 questions in one post is too much ?

 

[Iacchus32]

Even the past was once the present. And the future is merely the present as it continues to unfold itself. So, in effect all we really have is the present. And yet, since the present is the only place change can occur, this in effect becomes our destiny, what we choose in the present. In fact, this was the very choice Neo had in the movie, The Matrix.

By the way, did you know that http://www.dionysus.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159 was inclusive of everything, including time and space?

 

[Philocrat]

Once again, your using the word "Destiny" as the word "future".

"Destiny only makes sense if you can consciously control it."

If you can control your destiny, then its is not destiny you are controlling for destiny by definition is unchanging, it is your future. Your ideas are in agreement with this but yet your words are not.

I very much side with you in your view of our complacent approach to our future, it is an idea that I think about quite often and is at the centerpiece of my philosophy. I put much thought into how one person, namely myself, can assist the human race in surviving themselves.

We are saying the same thing, but understanding it differently. If you can control your future so that it does not wander off the course of what may be truly called 'the perfect state of being', then that is your destiny. I am trying to be optimistic and claim that we can structurally and functionally progress towards attaining such perfect state of being through proper use of the human inteligence.

 

[yayoubetcha]

Every event in this universe is a result of the cause and effect nature of the universe. It is that simple. Every star that has formed, every drop of rain, every mispeled word, is a result of cause and effect. Since we are thinking, reasoning creatures and have created such great acheivments, like wars and the works of great authors and artists, we want to believe that we have absolute control of our lives. We do not. We have as much control of our future as does a leaf blowing in the wind.

The reason we believe that we are in control is we think that something as complex as the human mind must mean we are in control. We do not. But, I could have turned left, but I decided at the last moment to turn right. That proves it. No it does not. It is every moment in your life on this planet, in this galaxy (etc.), that led to the moment where I turned right at that last moment.

I find this as more interesting. In this thinking, I have begun to have no regrets. How can I? Everything that has happened was going to happen. All of this said and done, I'm still voting Bush out of office.

Finally, to paraphase Douglas Adams, "Some believe the moment that someone actually figures out the nature of the universe it will be instantly be replaced by something more inexplicable... Others believe that this has already happened."

 

[TENYEARS]

You may understand or you may not understand what you speak, but your words are correct. Nice first post. Quote from yourself, if it's born there it will have more impact than a billion quotes.