Does an ideal fluid have zero surface tension?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether an ideal fluid has zero surface tension, exploring the implications of surface tension in relation to the properties of ideal fluids, particularly their viscosity and cohesive forces. The conversation touches on theoretical definitions and characteristics of fluids, as well as the behavior of fluids under various conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that an ideal fluid is defined solely by having zero viscosity, suggesting that it could still possess surface tension.
  • Others argue that zero surface tension would imply equal molecular attraction between fluid molecules and the atmosphere at the surface.
  • A participant mentions that near-zero surface tension may indicate a tendency for the fluid to evaporate, with surface tension decreasing as temperature increases.
  • One participant questions the relationship between viscosity and cohesive forces, suggesting that if viscosity is zero, cohesive forces may also be zero, leading to uncertainty about the state of surface tension.
  • Another participant notes that zero viscosity implies strong coupling of fluid particles, referencing the Boltzmann equation and the conditions of local thermal equilibrium.
  • Concerns are raised about the stability of interfaces, particularly when considering fluids in contact with a vacuum versus atmospheric conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between viscosity, cohesive forces, and surface tension, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made regarding the definitions of ideal fluids and the implications of zero viscosity, as well as the conditions under which surface tension is considered.

Death eater
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Does ideal fluid have zero surface tension?
What does zero surface tension signify?
 
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Death eater said:
Does ideal fluid have zero surface tension?
The definition of an ideal fluid is only that it has zero viscosity. So it would be allowed to have surface tension and still be considered ideal.
Death eater said:
What does zero surface tension signify?
It would signify that the molecules within the fluid have the same attraction to each other as to the atmosphere at the surface.
Here is a link to the wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension

A near-zero surface tension also tends to indicate that the fluid will readily evaporate.
Surface tension decreases as fluid temperature increases.
Fluids with low surface tension include Diethyl Ether (17.0), liquid Nitrogen (8.5), and liquid Helium II (0.37). In contrast, mercury at 15C has a surface tension of 487.
 
Last edited:
.Scott said:
The definition of an ideal fluid is only that it has zero viscosity. So it would be allowed to have surface tension and still be considered ideal.
It would signify that the molecules within the fluid have the same attraction to each other as to the atmosphere at the surface.
Here is a link to the wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension

A near-zero surface tension also tends to indicate that the fluid will readily evaporate.
Surface tension decreases as fluid temperature increases.
Fluids with low surface tension include Diethyl Ether (17.0), liquid Nitrogen (8.5), and liquid Helium II (0.37). In contrast, mercury at 15C has a surface tension of 487.
thanks for answer but if viscosity in liquids is the result of cohesive forces and if viscosity is zero then cohesive forces are 0. If the cohesive forces are zero will the surface tension be zero or positive?
 
Note that zero viscosity means that the fluid particles are very strongly coupled, i.e., the mean free path of the fluid particles is 0. It's the limit of the Boltzmann equation, where the distribution function is always the function of local thermal equilibrium, for which the collision term vanishes identically and entropy is maximal and thus conserved (adiabatic changes of state).
 
Death eater said:
thanks for answer but if viscosity in liquids is the result of cohesive forces and if viscosity is zero then cohesive forces are 0. If the cohesive forces are zero will the surface tension be zero or positive?
Unless the surface is an interface to a vacuum, some consideration needs to be given to the fluid above the surface. Then it becomes a comparison between chemical properties of the super fluid and that of the atmospheric fluid. If the interface IS with a vacuum, then we would need to consider whether that is even a stable interface - or if our super fluid will simply fill the vacuum.
 

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