I Does Pulse and Glide only work with manual transmissions and a kill switch?

AI Thread Summary
Pulse and glide driving techniques can theoretically apply to both manual and automatic transmissions, but the effectiveness may vary based on vehicle type and transmission design. When driving uphill, heavier cars require more throttle due to increased gravitational drag, leading to higher fuel consumption compared to lighter vehicles. Conversely, downhill driving provides a thrust component, potentially allowing heavier cars to reach higher speeds, but real-world factors like aerodynamic drag and engine efficiency significantly influence overall fuel consumption. Regenerative braking in electric vehicles can mitigate some energy loss, but aerodynamic drag remains a crucial factor for efficiency. Ultimately, while weight affects fuel consumption, aerodynamic drag plays a more significant role, especially at constant high speeds.
Jurgen M
When car drive uphill, gravity/weight has drag component, that is reason why you must add more throttle compare to ligther car at same constant speed uphill. So logicaly car increase fuel consumption.

But if you drive downhill, gravity/weight has thrust component, so your top speed("terminal velocity") will be higer compare to ligther car.(Do you agre with this?)

If we neglect cars acceleration (somehow) can both cars have same fuel consumption, because downhill and uphill cancel each out?
(If we assume that uphill and downhill section are equal on your trip and both cars has same aero drag)

So is acceleration only reason why heavier car has higher fuel consumption ?
Neglect rolling resitance which increase by weight..
 
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Real life is messier than our theories predict. But yes, if we model the engine as having constant efficiency regardless of power setting and we decide that the two cars are both being driven at the same constant speed regardless of slope then the energy consumption over a trip will be the same for both cars and, hence, the fuel consumption will be as well.

In fact, engines tend not to be equally efficient at all power settings. Your mileage may vary.
 
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jbriggs444 said:
Real life is messier than our theories predict. But yes, if we model the engine as having constant efficiency regardless of power setting and we decide that the two cars are both being driven at constant speed regardless of slope then the energy consumption over a trip will be the same for both cars and, hence, the fuel consumption will be as well.

In fact, engines tend not to be equally efficient at all power settings. Your mileage may vary.
But conclusion is that aero drag affect fuel consupmtion more then weight, if both cars has same average "mxa", especially at EV that can restore energy at downhill section?
 
Jurgen M said:
But conclusion is that aero drag affect fuel consupmtion more then weight, if both cars has same average "mxa", especially at EV that can restore energy at downhill section?
Yes.
 
Jurgen M said:
But conclusion is that aero drag affect fuel consupmtion more then weight, if both cars has same average "mxa", especially at EV that can restore energy at downhill section?
Yes. I would conclude that.

Note that the argument I gave implicitly assumes regenerative braking at a physically impossible efficiency if the down slopes are extreme enough to reduce the engine power requirement below zero.

If you have 40% efficient conversion of stored potential energy to vehicle mechanical energy then the regenerative system must operate at 250% efficiency to maintain the same ratio.

If one is driving a hybrid, it could be only the final electric stage that is implicated. So it might be more like 90% efficient electrical propulsion requiring 110% efficient regeneration to match. Numbers pulled from thin air.
 
jbriggs444 said:
Yes. I would conclude that.

Note that the argument I gave implicitly assumes regenerative braking (at a physically impossible efficiency) if?
In real life for EVs, what contribute more for better range, low aero drag (CdxA) or low mass?
Aero drag cant be restored.
 
...and it doesn't take much slope to reduce the engine power required to zero.

My gas car actually has selectable modes for downhill behavior. You can opt to leave the transmission engaged or to go neutral. It strikes me that neutral is counterproductive since an idling engine is all waste whereas rolling downhill in gear, gravity powers the accessories with zero fuel consumption.
 
russ_watters said:
It strikes me that neutral is counterproductive since an idling engine is all waste whereas rolling downhill in gear, gravity powers the accessories with zero fuel consumption.
Yes, but cylinder compression and internal engine friction slow you down.
But in practice on downhill you are going too fast so put in gear is better..
 
Jurgen M said:
Yes, but compression and internal engine friction slow you down.
But we are assuming constant speed. Something will be slowing you down regardless. If not the engine, then the braking system. Or the cops.

Engine braking probably reduces the fuel delivered by the injectors below the idle requirements. (Though my last exposure to automobile engines was in the era of carburetors with venturis). @russ_watters makes the point that engine braking also unloads the engine from any load imposed by the air conditioner and other accessories that might require more than just idle power.
 
  • #10
Jurgen M said:
... But if you drive downhill, gravity/weight has thrust component, so your top speed("terminal velocity") will be higer compare to ligther car.(Do you agre with this?)
...
According to Galileo, do heavier objects fall faster than light ones?
Please, see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frictionless_plane

Two identical bicycles; heavy rider and light rider with same leg’s strength: which one climbs faster?
Pedaling dowhill as fast as they can, which one descends faster?

Engines can only rotate as fast as they can properly breath.
Too many rpm will complicate breathing and reduce delivered torque.

They are designed mainly as a one way driving force, to impulse a mass from standing still up to the car’s aerodynamic terminal velocity, and to climb hills at max torque.

With fuel injection, when output torque is not necessary, the supply of fuel to the combustion chambers if shut-off.
 
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  • #11
Jurgen M said:
Yes, but cylinder compression and internal engine friction slow you down.
But in practice on downhill you are going too fast so put in gear is better..
Right, as I said earlier it really doesn't take much of a hill to drop fuel consumption to zero. And even if it doesn't it is still a reduction.
 
  • #12
jbriggs444 said:
Engine braking probably reduces the fuel delivered by the injectors below the idle requirements. (Though my last exposure to automobile engines was in the era of carburetors with venturis).
I've verified this with an ECM monitor. They report "throttle" and fuel flow at zero and the coolant cools noticeably in just a 30 second downhill run.
 
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  • #13
Lnewqban said:
According to Galileo, do heavier objects fall faster than light ones?
Does a cannonball fall faster than a balloon?

Lnewqban said:
Why do you think that helps answer this question?

Lnewqban said:
Two identical bicycles; heavy rider and light rider with same leg’s strength: which one climbs faster?
Why do you think that is relevant: here it is stated that both cars travel at the same constant speed (and so clearly the heavier one must have "stronger legs" for this to be true while traveling uphill).

Lnewqban said:
Pedaling dowhill as fast as they can, which one descends faster?
Why do you think that is relevant: here it is stated that both cars travel at the same constant speed?
 
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  • #14
Jurgen M said:
In real life for EVs, what contribute more for better range, low aero drag (CdxA) or low mass?
EV or not, if you use your car mostly at a constant speed, especially high speeds (highway traffic for example), a lower aero drag is what you want since, as you already mentioned, weight only affects fuel consumption when acceleration is present.

Otherwise, it means you are constantly accelerating and decelerating, thus a lower mass is preferred, especially if done at lower speeds (city traffic for example).
 
  • #15
pbuk said:
Does a cannonball fall faster than a balloon?Why do you think that helps answer this question?Why do you think that is relevant: here it is stated that both cars travel at the same constant speed (and so clearly the heavier one must have "stronger legs" for this to be true while traveling uphill).Why do you think that is relevant: here it is stated that both cars travel at the same constant speed?
I don’t know how to answer your questions, but I would love to read the reasons for which you find those statements of mine misleading and irrelevant.

I also hope to learn something for your future post that helps answer the OP’s questions.
 
  • #16
Jurgen M said:
When car drive uphill, gravity/weight has drag component, that is reason why you must add more throttle compare to ligther car at same constant speed uphill. So logicaly car increase fuel consumption.
When I had my previous truck, a GMC Canyon, I regularly drove between two places that were 72 miles horizontally and 800 feet vertically apart. My gas mileage was typically 3 to 4 MPG better driving downhill than uphill even though the average slope was only 11 feet per mile. I once did a theoretical calculation of the difference in energy due to the elevation change, and it agreed with the difference in measured gas mileage. I averaged 35 MPG in that truck, so the difference in MPG was about 10%.
 
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  • #17
jrmichler said:
When I had my previous truck, a GMC Canyon, I regularly drove between two places that were 72 miles horizontally and 800 feet vertically apart. My gas mileage was typically 3 to 4 MPG better driving downhill than uphill even though the average slope was only 11 feet per mile. I once did a theoretical calculation of the difference in energy due to the elevation change, and it agreed with the difference in measured gas mileage. I averaged 35 MPG in that truck, so the difference in MPG was about 10%.
Did you consider wind?
 
  • #18
Jurgen M said:
When car drive uphill, gravity/weight has drag component
A hill adds a work component. Don't confuse this with drag, the latter being a waste of energy. In theory, in a frictionless environment, a car can go up and down hills with no expenditure of energy at all. The moon certainly does that every month.

Jurgen M said:
But if you drive downhill, gravity/weight has thrust component, so your top speed("terminal velocity") will be higer compare to ligther car.(Do you agre with this?)
For the same reason that a bit rock dropped on the moon hits the ground at the same time as a feather, no, the heavier car doesn't go faster down hills. It's all about the respective mass to coefficient of friction ratio, and larger vehicles invariably have larger coefficients of friction. It's harder to push a truck on level ground at a walking pace than it is to push a little car.

Jurgen M said:
If we neglect cars acceleration (somehow) can both cars have same fuel consumption, because downhill and uphill cancel each out?
A well driven efficient car will get similar fuel efficiency on reasonably hilly terrain as it would on level roads. Big hills are a different story since one probably needs to brake going down them to maintain a reasonable speed. Higher speed decreases fuel efficiency on any terrain.

Jurgen M said:
So is acceleration only reason why heavier car has higher fuel consumption ?
Acceleration doesn't happen at all while cruising. Yea, if there are starts and stops, it takes more work to do that with a bigger mass. But big things have more friction than little ones, so the little cars have less drag, and drag is what causes most fuel consumption.
Jurgen M said:
Neglect rolling resitance which increase by weight..
If you neglect that, and the stop signs and such, then it takes zero fuel for any vehicle. Again, the moon is wonderfully fuel efficient despite massing more than a battleship. But it has no rolling resisitance.

russ_watters said:
It strikes me that neutral is counterproductive since an idling engine is all waste whereas rolling downhill in gear, gravity powers the accessories with zero fuel consumption.
Not so. A car uses considerable fuel while off the gas while in gear. You can tell because of the significantly increased drag if you actually shut off the fuel injectors. Leaving it in gear is engine braking. There's a lot of friction and associated lost fuel efficiency by keeping your engine RPM high while it isn't doing any work. Most of the mechanical friction is in the engine.

I have one favorite spot where I can get from the top of one (usually) gentle hill all the way to the stop sign 16 km away. I can't do that if I leave the thing in gear but foot off the pedals. I honestly have no way of measuring fuel consumption of 22 minutes of engine idle vs 32 minutes of the wheels pushing a high RPM drive train with theoretically sub-idle fuel consumption. At times the engine would definitely be accelerating the car, which sort of disqualifies it as coasting.
 
  • #19
The answers here saying "if you ignore aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance and assume 100% efficiency then the heavy car will use the same amount of fuel as the light car" are wrong.

  1. Consider the amount of work done in ascending the hill: the heavy car's engine will do more work and therefore use more fuel.
  2. When descending the hill the light car doesn't use any fuel. In order to make up for the additional fuel it used on the way up the heavy car would have to use less than no fuel, which is not possible.
  3. Also the constraint that both cars maintain the same constant speed throughout is violated: with no drag both cars will accelerate downhill.
  4. If instead the cars travel the downhill leg first, then neither will use any fuel, however the constant speed constraint will still be violated.
  5. If instead we consider an electric vehicle with 100% efficiency, and also 100% efficient regenerative braking and make the same drag-less assumption then by conservation of energy both vehicles use no net energy in the round trip, and they can fulfill the constant speed constraint.
  6. If we add air resistance (the same for both cars) as in the OP things get more interesting.
  7. On the uphill leg the cars' engines will do work equal to ## mgh + f_ds ## where ## f_d ## is the drag force (which is constant because the speed is constant) and ## s ## is the distance travelled: the heavier car does ## \Delta_m gh ## more work where ## \Delta_m ## is the difference in the mass of the cars.
  8. On the downhill leg gravity will do work at the rate of ## mg\frac{dh}{dt} ##, working against air resistance at ## f_d \frac{ds}{dt} ##, and in order to maintain speed each cars engine must work at a rate of ## f_d \frac{ds}{dt} - mg\frac{dh}{dt} ##. Now the heavier car's engine works at a rate ## \Delta_m g\frac{dh}{dt} ## less than the lighter car and in the total descent does ## \Delta_m gh ## less work.
  9. Because the heavier car does the same amount less work in the descent as it did more in the ascent, it uses the same amount of fuel.
We now have enough information to completely answer the questions in the OP.

Jurgen M said:
When car drive uphill, gravity/weight has drag component, that is reason why you must add more throttle compare to ligther car at same constant speed uphill. So logicaly car increase fuel consumption.
Yes a heavier car uses more fuel than a lighter car when traveling uphill (other things being equal).

Jurgen M said:
But if you drive downhill, gravity/weight has thrust component, so your top speed("terminal velocity") will be higer compare to ligther car.(Do you agre with this?)
I am not sure it is helpful to think about "thrust", however it can be seen from the expression for work in 8 above that if ## mg\frac{dh}{dt} > f_d \frac{ds}{dt} ## then the car will accelerate. Because (all things being equal) the term on the left hand side is greater for a heavier car then yes, other things being equal, terminal velocity is greater for a vehicle with a greater mass. This is why we have escape lanes (aka runaway truck ramps).

Jurgen M said:
If we neglect cars acceleration (somehow) can both cars have same fuel consumption, because downhill and uphill cancel each out?
(If we assume that uphill and downhill section are equal on your trip and both cars has same aero drag)
Yes, we can see from conservation of energy that fuel consumption is equal because "downhill and uphill cancel out", however the analysis in the numbered points above shows that there is an additional constraint that aerodynamic drag is sufficient to require both cars to use non-negative engine power downhill to maintain speed.

Jurgen M said:
So is acceleration only reason why heavier car has higher fuel consumption ?
No, rolling resistance is the principal reason heavier cars have higher fuel consumption (other things being equal).

Jurgen M said:
Neglect rolling resitance which increase by weight..
You can't neglect rolling resistance because (if aerodynamic drag is assumed equal) this is the principal factor affecting fuel consumption.
 
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  • #20
russ_watters said:
Did you consider wind?
And a few other factors. I made that round trip once per week for 11 years, so got a good idea of what affected the mileage. Headwinds vs tailwinds affected mileage by at least 5 MPG. Temperature had an effect. I averaged 32 MPG in winter, and 38 MPG in summer. The average winter temperature was about 60 deg F lower than the summer average, so 10 deg F was worth 1.0 MPG. A more complete discussion is at: https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/modding-06-gmc-canyon-17070.html.

The effect of uphill vs downhill on gas mileage is more complex than simple physics energy calculations. Engine efficiency has a large effect. Engine efficiency varies with RPM and the percent torque, and is shown in a performance map. A typical engine performance map is shown below:
BSFC.jpg
The contour lines are lines of constant efficiency. The most efficient operating point is near 2500 RPM at about 125 Nm torque. The red dots are points of 10 hp at various RPM's. Ten hp at 1000 RPM burns about 295 gr/kW-hr, while ten hp at 4000 RPM burns 450 gr/kW-hr, or 50% more fuel to generate the same power. That's only one reason why gas mileage cannot be predicted by only considering the laws of physics.
 
  • #21
pbuk said:
The answers here saying "if you ignore aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance and assume 100% efficiency then the heavy car will use the same amount of fuel as the light car" are wrong.
Thank you. Things are starting to get messy here and they started off so well. This is not an ideal situation. These approximations others added are wrong for the real world, and the assumptions that are appropriate here should be fairly obvious or clearly assigned in a way that agrees with reality.

Let's keep our eye on the ball, folks!
 
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  • #23
Halc said:
Not so. A car uses considerable fuel while off the gas while in gear. You can tell because of the significantly increased drag if you actually shut off the fuel injectors. Leaving it in gear is engine braking. There's a lot of friction and associated lost fuel efficiency by keeping your engine RPM high while it isn't doing any work. Most of the mechanical friction is in the engine.
If you're coasting at highway speed you might have a relatively high rpm, but otherwise you won't. And sure, engine and drivetrain drag is a significant fraction of overall engine load/fuel use. At highway speed it can be a quarter, slower it might be half. But all these losses are small compared to the energy gain or loss from a hill. The math on this is straightforward:

Say you have a 4,000 lb car that gets 30 mpg at 60 mph. From prior calculation that's about 17 horsepower or, obviously, 2 gal/hr. At idle a car uses around half a gallon per hour. 17 horsepower on a hill is 2.3 ft/sec of elevation change or at 60 mph a 2.6% grade. That's all it takes to shut off fuel flow to the engine and use engine braking to maintain constant speed. Or if your rpm is 4x idle a 4.6% grade.
 
  • #24
pbuk said:
1. Consider the amount of work done in ascending the hill: the heavy car's engine will do more work and therefore use more fuel.
Agreed.
pbuk said:
2. When descending the hill the light car doesn't use any fuel. In order to make up for the additional fuel it used on the way up the heavy car would have to use less than no fuel, which is not possible.
Not true. with no energy input or output, the car will necessarily have increased its velocity at the bottom of the hill. That is "stored fuel" to do extra work. You cannot neglect that.
pbuk said:
3. Also the constraint that both cars maintain the same constant speed throughout is violated: with no drag both cars will accelerate downhill.
Agreed. But the velocity doesn't matter: if a vehicle goes from height ##h_i## to ##h_f##, and then goes back to ##h_i##, considering only that point, the net energy will always be zero.
pbuk said:
4. If instead the cars travel the downhill leg first, then neither will use any fuel, however the constant speed constraint will still be violated.
Agreed.
pbuk said:
5. If instead we consider an electric vehicle with 100% efficiency, and also 100% efficient regenerative braking and make the same drag-less assumption then by conservation of energy both vehicles use no net energy in the round trip, and they can fulfill the constant speed constraint.
This proves the point made earlier: You restrain the acceleration while going downhill and instead of increasing the kinetic energy of the vehicle, you store it in some battery, spring, or rotating mass and use it to do extra work later on (doesn't have to be going uphill).
pbuk said:
6. If we add air resistance (the same for both cars) as in the OP things get more interesting.
No, it doesn't. It is just adding a different problem completely independent of the previous one.
pbuk said:
7. On the uphill leg the cars' engines will do work equal to ## mgh + f_ds ## where ## f_d ## is the drag force (which is constant because the speed is constant) and ## s ## is the distance travelled: the heavier car does ## \Delta_m gh ## more work where ## \Delta_m ## is the difference in the mass of the cars.

8. On the downhill leg gravity will do work at the rate of ## mg\frac{dh}{dt} ##, working against air resistance at ## f_d \frac{ds}{dt} ##, and in order to maintain speed each cars engine must work at a rate of ## f_d \frac{ds}{dt} - mg\frac{dh}{dt} ##. Now the heavier car's engine works at a rate ## \Delta_m g\frac{dh}{dt} ## less than the lighter car and in the total descent does ## \Delta_m gh ## less work.
Although all of this is true, it is actually hiding what is really going on.

This is a case of superposition of two independent problems:
  1. The car will go uphill and downhill and, assuming both initial and final levels are the same, this results in no energy requirement;
  2. There is a drag force ##F## acting on a path of length ##s## requiring an energy input of ##Fs##.
The total energy required is the sum of both: ##0+ Fs = Fs##. In fact, it doesn't matter:
  • whether ##F## is constant or not (i.e. velocity is constant);
  • whether the resistance force is a drag force, rolling resistance, coming from a big magnet pulling the car back, or the sum of all of these forces;
The total energy required will always be ##\int_{s_1}^{s_2} F_{net}ds##, just like assuming there is no uphill or downhill.
pbuk said:
9. Because the heavier car does the same amount less work in the descent as it did more in the ascent, it uses the same amount of fuel.
Yes, it does the same amount of work, i.e. drag force times the distance traveled. Your equation in point #8 ## f_d \frac{ds}{dt} - mg\frac{dh}{dt} ## only means (assuming constant velocity):
$$f_d \frac{ds}{dt} = mg\frac{dh}{dt}$$
$$f_d\cancelto{}{\frac{ds}{dt}} = mg\frac{dh}{ds}\cancelto{}{\frac{ds}{dt}}$$
$$f_d = mg\sin\theta$$
If we assume the slopes of the hill ##\theta## are the same on both sides (which it doesn't have to be) and a constant drag force (constant velocity), then:
$$E_{up} = f_d\frac{s}{2} + mgh$$
$$E_{down} = f_d\frac{s}{2} - mgh$$
$$E_{total} = E_{up} + E_{down} = f_d s$$
Assuming the slopes are different will only create a different ratio of distance traveled uphill versus downhill, but, in the end, only the total distance traveled ##s## matters.
 
  • #25
Halc said:
no, the heavier car doesn't go faster down hills.
Yes it does.
Do you understand that parachute with 10tons weight fall down faster the parachute with 100kg weight?

In vacuum and frictionless world ,they acceleration downhill will be the same
 
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  • #26
jack action said:
Not true. with no energy input or output, the car will necessarily have increased its velocity at the bottom of the hill. That is "stored fuel" to do extra work. You cannot neglect that.
The question is about fuel consumption which is measured in either mpg (miles per gallon, US or Imperial) or l/100km (litres per 100 km). Nowhere does "stored fuel to do extra work" feature in mpg or l/100km.

Also the "stored fuel" argument assumes that you can increase the speed of the car arbitrarily. In order to compensate for any reasonable height of ascent this soon becomes absurd. Note that the final speed after starting a frictionless descent from height ## h ## with initial speed ## v_0 ## is ## v = \sqrt{v_0^2 + 2 g h} ##, so with an inital speed of 25 m/s (about 55 mph) and height of 100 m (about 330 feet) you end up more than doubling your speed to about 110 mph.

jack action said:
Agreed. But the velocity doesn't matter: if a vehicle goes from height ##h_i## to ##h_f##, and then goes back to ##h_i##, considering only that point, the net energy will always be zero.
The net energy change may be zero, but if we have converted some of our fuel to kinetic energy then the fuel consumption goes up. Again, the question is about fuel consumption.

jack action said:
This proves the point made earlier: You restrain the acceleration while going downhill and instead of increasing the kinetic energy of the vehicle, you store it in some battery, spring, or rotating mass and use it to do extra work later on (doesn't have to be going uphill).
There is nothing about this in the original question.
 
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  • #27
Problem is IC engine cant store energy when going downhill,computer just kill fuel 0.0L/100km on downwhil leg and that is it.
But on downhill leg you will get higher top speed with heavier car so you can use this momentum to move longer before you again must push gas pedal.

But I think from downhill/uphill trip from point A to B you will allways use more fuel with heavier car, even both car have same average speed.
 
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  • #28
In my car I can regularly get 40mpg even though it’s listed at 33mpg highway. (I do check every time I fill up by dividing the miles traveled by the gallons pumped).

In the mountains, on the downhills it’s beneficial to be in neutral coasting as this drops the engine rpm from around 2500rpm while coasting to around 750rpm.

On the flat highway, I note the lowest rpm that can be achieved while in the highest gear. This results in me cruising at about 61mph even though the speed limit is 70mph. Fortunately the speed limit is 55mph for tractor trailers but they usually go about 61mph, and being a short distance behind one of those helps the fuel economy considerably by reducing the air resistance/drag. Also, turning off the air conditioner and making sure the tires are fully inflated helps. The car is a Nissan Versa.

Only if I drive slowly (40-50mph) uphill in the mountains such that my RPMs don’t exceed 2500, and coast in neutral on the downhills will I get similar 40mpg as I do while cruising at 61mph on a flat freeway.
 
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  • #30
Motore said:
I also thought that back in the time, but it actually consumes more fuel being in neutral than being in gear on downhill (with no foot on the gas).
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a5977/coasting-in-neutral-fuel-economy/
Does anyone remember the BMW ad from the 80s that said in bold letters 0 mpg with BMW? The picture showed a BMW going downhill. Of course, the ad was just a clumsy translation from the German version which said 0 l/km. But I think they were advertising free wheeling when in the ECO mode.

Does anyone remember the Saab 96 two stroke with "free wheeling"? Owners of that car loved it and bragged about it.

Ditto the Austin mini. Ditto Volvo V40. The CLS [what does CLS stand for?] goes in neutral and stops the engine when coasting.

I think the key point is fuel injection. Carbureted cars can't achieve zero fuel flow when running.
 
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  • #31
Devin-M said:
In the mountains, on the downhills it’s beneficial to be in neutral coasting as this drops the engine rpm from around 2500rpm while coasting to around 750rpm.
Motore said:
I also thought that back in the time, but it actually consumes more fuel being in neutral than being in gear on downhill (with no foot on the gas).
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a5977/coasting-in-neutral-fuel-economy/
Again, this will depend on the slope and what you are trying to achieve speed-wise. If the slope is pretty mild and the speed high it probably makes sense to idle in neutral. But that's probably a pretty narrow range of situations. For my car anyway it doesn't take much slope before it will do a runaway acceleration from highway speed in idle. So maybe the situation can be summed-up: if you're in neutral and on the brakes you're wasting energy that could be used to spin your engine and run your accessories.

I did a quick calc earlier, but it may be possible to calculate exactly the range of speeds and slopes where it makes sense to idle (again, I expect it is very narrow)...

That link, btw, starts off talking about coasting in idle to a stop sign/light. Maybe that's some really lazy manual transmission stuff? At worst I'd just leave it in my top gear until I was going slow enough I had to get out or stall. In my newer automatic with paddle shifters I often downshift while coasting to a stop. Better for fuel economy and better for your brakes than being in neutral.
anorlunda said:
Carbureted cars can't achieve zero fuel flow when running.
That I wasn't aware of, but then I don't think I've ever driven one. Is that because there's no fuel flow control except via carburetor airflow throttling, and that never goes to zero (otherwise you pull a vacuum at the engine)?
 
  • #32
russ_watters said:
That I wasn't aware of, but then I don't think I've ever driven one. Is that because there's no fuel flow control except via carburetor airflow throttling, and that never goes to zero (otherwise you pull a vacuum at the engine)?
There's an idle screw that keeps the throttle open enough to set idle speed.

You're no spring chicken Russ. I can't believe that you never drove a car prior to fuel injection. I never drove prior to the invention of the wheel, but it was close. :wink:
 
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  • #33
anorlunda said:
You're no spring chicken Russ. I can't believe that you never drove a car prior to fuel injection. I never drove prior to the invention of the wheel, but it was close. :wink:
Google tells me fuel injection went mainstream in the '70s. How old do you think I am? :-p

I've had a few carbureted devices, but haven't dug into them enough for that. Thinking back to the RC plane I built as a kid, I remember it had a screw/pin for adjusting mixture, but no idle setting (probably because you want to be able to cut it off with the throttle). I'm flying real ones now, and I guess it probably has one, but it isn't for me to adjust.
 
  • #34
russ_watters said:
Google tells me fuel injection went mainstream in the '70s. How old do you think I am?
LOL. I didn't mean to suggest ancient. But I did assume that most of us started with a 5-10 year old car.

Also the mainstream takeover of fuel injection was gradual. Wikipedia says:

Manifold injection was phased in through the latter 1970s and 80s at an accelerating rate, with the German, French, and U.S. markets leading and the UK and Commonwealth markets lagging somewhat. Since the early 1990s, almost all petrol passenger cars sold in first world markets are equipped with electronic manifold injection.
So up until 1995-2000 there were still numerous carbureted cars on the roads in the USA.

 
  • #35
Motore said:
I also thought that back in the time, but it actually consumes more fuel being in neutral than being in gear on downhill (with no foot on the gas).
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a5977/coasting-in-neutral-fuel-economy/
russ_watters said:
Again, this will depend on the slope and what you are trying to achieve speed-wise. If the slope is pretty mild and the speed high it probably makes sense to idle in neutral. But that's probably a pretty narrow range of situations. For my car anyway it doesn't take much slope before it will do a runaway acceleration from highway speed in idle. So maybe the situation can be summed-up: if you're in neutral and on the brakes you're wasting energy that could be used to spin your engine and run your accessories.
The article was an interesting read, and I didn't know the fuel injectors would bring the fuel flow to 0% while coasting in gear on a downhill.

That said I don't believe all factors have been considered in the article. When I was talking about coasting downhill in neutral in the mountains, for me, I meant going 60-70mph downhill for 5 miles or so at a time while in neutral on a hill like this:

coasting.jpg

From what I gathered in the article, even if fuel injectors aren't injecting any fuel at all while the car is in gear coasting downhill, surely keeping the engine turning at 2500rpm with no fuel being consumed is an additional source of drag above and beyond the air resistance and rolling resistance.

If my memory serves, and I do keep the car in gear while coasting downhill, it will lose speed faster than if it was in neutral, and so I might need to push the gas a little bit to maintain speed, whereas if I were to keep the car in neutral, it will maintain speed on its own from the release of gravitational potential energy.
 
  • #36
russ_watters said:
Again, this will depend on the slope and what you are trying to achieve speed-wise. If the slope is pretty mild and the speed high it probably makes sense to idle in neutral.
When the speed is higher than the speed achieved purely with the torque of the engine, then leaving it in gear will consume no fuel. Leaving it in neutral will always consume fuel.

Devin-M said:
That said I don't believe all factors have been considered in the article. When I was talking about coasting downhill in neutral in the mountains, for me, I meant going 60-70mph downhill while in neutral on a hill like this:
Sure if you want to mantain constant speed, then it's another matter. It depends on the slope.

Every weekend I drive for 5 km down an average slope of 5% and I always leave it in the highest gear and it stays roughly in the 120 km/h (+-10km/h). It consumes no fuel at all, while in neutral it would consume about 0.6 l/h.

Devin-M said:
From what I gathered in the article, even if fuel injectors aren't injecting any fuel at all while the car is in gear coasting downhill, surely keeping the engine turning at 2500rpm is an additional source of drag above and beyond the air resistance and rolling resistance.
Sure, but from the safety concern it's actually a good thing. From my example above, if I would coast in neutral I would go around 150 km/h which on a twisty road is not really safe. And it would still consume fuel.
 
  • #37
Motore said:
When the speed is higher than the speed achieved purely with the torque of the engine, then leaving it in gear will consume no fuel. Leaving it in neutral will always consume fuel.
For the scenario I'm describing, the slope is not enough to keep the car from slowing down. So fuel is needed either way (in gear or in neutral).

For the particular hill I was thinking of on my drive home, if I'm a gear or two below my top gear, the car slows down (not a highway).
 
  • #38
russ_watters said:
For the scenario I'm describing, the slope is not enough to keep the car from slowing down. So fuel is needed either way (in gear or in neutral).

For the particular hill I was thinking of on my drive home, if I'm a gear or two below my top gear, the car slows down (not a highway).
Hmm it the slope is so big that the car wouldn't slow down, then leaving it in gear will consume no fuel and it will add some drag. If you have it in a lower gear the car will of course slow down faster and it still won't consume fuel until the speed because of the torque of the engine will surpass the speed of the car. This:
Motore said:
When the speed is higher than the speed achieved purely with the torque of the engine, then leaving it in gear will consume no fuel. Leaving it in neutral will always consume fuel.
is always true.
 
  • #39
Motore said:
is always true.
Only for fuel injected engines.
 
  • #40
anorlunda said:
Only for fuel injected engines.
Agree.
 
  • #41
There's another stretch I often do with a 9.2 mile 1329ft descent which works out to 2.7% avg grade, and the speed limit is 55mph. I am thinking of doing a little experiment to see how well I can maintain 55mph in neutral vs in gear... & there's a gas station right at the bottom of the hill, so I should be able to fill up once, go up and down in gear, and then fill up again, go up, then down in neutral, then fill up and compare which used less gas while maintaining 55mph.
coasting2.jpg
 
  • #42
I haven't read the article, not sure how to access it, so just some thoughts relating to comments:

If the car is an automatic, the transmission will generally be disengaged (apart from its minimal transmission drag) while coasting downhill, so the engine will be idling. You can of course put it in sports shift to lock the transmission & engine brake, but then your loading up and wearing the transmission rather than the brakes. I'd rather replace brake parts than trash a whole car due to worn transmission.

If it's a manual in gear, it's the same situation as sports shift above. If it's carburated, the engine will drag air/fuel past the throttle butterfly valve at a rate greater than idle, because the engine will be doing more revs than at idle.

I am uncertain about the situation with fuel injection, when the the transmission is driving the engine. It seems to me that the fuel control system could be made totally shut off the injectors, whether that is done, I don't know. I'm more familiar with maintaining carburated systems, none of which totally shut off fuel IME.

It should be noted that the most expensive component of a car is it's transmission. If you are engine braking through the transmission, this increases the load on the transmission, also increasing wear. When you wear out the transmission, the car is generally done as it's not worth the replacement cost. When you wear out brake parts, you just get them replaced, your choice. On very long steep decants, engine braking can save your brakes from overheating, which used to be more of a problem than it is now, especially when loaded up or towing unbraked trailers.

When I was younger (70s), on long straightish country descents, I used to just slip out of gear and coast without controlling speed (no braking), while illegal, this extended the coasting distance, sometimes considerably if it got me over another rise. Too much traffic, cops & radars these days. Probably not as beneficial as some may imagine because D = 1/2p x V^2 x S x Cd, that V^2 is the kicker.
 
  • #43
Kenwstr said:
If the car is an automatic, the transmission will generally be disengaged (apart from its minimal transmission drag) while coasting downhill, so the engine will be idling.
My last few cars haven't done that (though on my current car you can choose). If you have an rpm gauge though it will be easy to tell if it does or doesn't.
[Edit]
And by the way, this really annoyed me when I first saw it:

20221107_163738.jpg


It's wrong and I have no doubt the engineers who designed the car know it is wrong. I'm sure it's there because marketteers think more features = better.
 
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  • #44
Kenwstr said:
It should be noted that the most expensive component of a car is it's transmission. If you are engine braking through the transmission, this increases the load on the transmission, also increasing wear.
Are you sure about that? There's not much difference in the transmission providing braking force, as providing driving force to make the car go forward. Where is the evidence other than instinct that engine braking causes excess transmission wear?

My Toyota canceled cruise control when down shifting. Now I have a Mazda that leaves cruise control when I downshift. That's helpful holding a constant speed when going down steep hills where there are signs TRUCKS MUST USE LOWER GEAR. Sometimes, the transmission downshifts itself when going downhill in cruise control.
 
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  • #45
I just spent several hours testing this—

Let me recap-- I drive a 2008 Nissan Versa, 4 speed automatic, non-hybrid. It's advertised for 33mpg on the highway. When I drive it 61mph behind semi trucks for hundreds of miles I can usually average 40.5 miles per gallon (measured when I refill the tank - miles driven divided by gallons topped off - usually after ~350 miles). 40.5 mpg is about the highest MPG I've previously measured.

Now to today's experiment...

This is the test course:
-I began the experiment at the bottom of a mountain at a gas station in Lewiston, CA (at the bottom of the map), and used Gas Pump 1 to top off my tank (and by top off I mean the gas spigot would instantly turn off if I tried to pump more). All subsequent refills used this same Gas Pump 1, and were topped off in the same manner.

-Each "test" consisted of going up the mountain, back down to the gas station, then back up the mountain then back down-- 49.6 miles according to the Google map, 51.9 miles according to my odometer.

-55mph speed limit - though my speed varied at various points depending on terrain between about 38-60mph

-Neither test was I closely followed by another vehicle nor did I closely follow any other vehicles

-The first 51.9 mile test, I left the automatic transmission in "Drive" the entire way, both up and down, and I tried to get the highest possible MPG-- foot off the accelerator on the down hills, foot very lightly pressing the gas on the uphills. This test took 1hr:10min:54sec, and when I again completely topped off the tank on the same pump at the end, 1.12 US Gallons had been consumed, for a total of 46.3 MPG, the highest miles per gallon my car has ever achieved

-The second 51.9 mile test, I put the transmission in neutral as much as possible on the downhills in an attempt to save fuel, and I again tried to get the highest possible MPG-- foot off the accelerator on the down hills (in neutral), foot very lightly pressing the gas on the uphills. This test took 1hr:13min:38sec (2 min 44sec longer), and when I again completely topped off the tank on the same pump at the end, 1.91 US Gallons had been consumed, for a total of 27.1 MPG, considerably lower than the 40.5 MPG I get going 61mph at constant speed behind semis over a long distance

Conclusion: The results are consistent with considerably improved fuel economy when leaving the car in drive and foot off the throttle on long down hills (46.3 MPG), compared to significantly worse results when putting the car in "neutral" on long downhills (27.1 MPG), compared with medium results at constant 61 MPH behind a semi truck on flat ground (40.5 MPG)

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  • #46
coasting3.jpg
 
  • #47
anorlunda said:
Are you sure about that? There's not much difference in the transmission providing braking force, as providing driving force to make the car go forward. Where is the evidence other than instinct that engine braking causes excess transmission wear?
Where the rubber meets the road is actual lifespan and failure. I've never owned a car that didn't need several brake pad changes and most a rotor change, and I've also never owned a car that needed a transmission replacement.

A few years ago I was driving with a middle-aged client in the only car she'd ever owned, which she got in high school (I believe a Civic). It was most of the way back from the moon and really needed to be taken out behind the barn and shot, but the engine and drivetrain were fine. No major repairs ever (I asked).

Now, I've never gone above 180,000 miles myself but my sample suggests that transmission failure is fairly rare or by the time you get there it's time to take the car off life support anyway.

anorlunda said:
My Toyota canceled cruise control when down shifting. Now I have a Mazda that leaves cruise control when I downshift. That's helpful holding a constant speed when going down steep hills where there are signs TRUCKS MUST USE LOWER GEAR. Sometimes, the transmission downshifts itself when going downhill in cruise control.
My Kia takes that a step further and automatically downshifts (or declines to upshift) when going downhill to avoid accelerating. But the car doesn't know if that's what I actually want and I frequently override it. I don't think that feature can be turned off.
 
  • #48
Devin-M said:
-The second 51.9 mile test, I put the transmission in neutral as much as possible on the downhills in an attempt to save fuel, and I again tried to get the highest possible MPG-- foot off the accelerator on the down hills (in neutral), foot very lightly pressing the gas on the uphills.
Good test. Not critical, but can you clarify if this required braking to avoid too much acceleration and/or if you allowed the car to accelerate as much as it wanted (and if so how much)?
 
  • #49
russ_watters said:
Good test. Not critical, but can you clarify if this required braking to avoid too much acceleration and/or if you allowed the car to accelerate as much as it wanted (and if so how much)?
The road was curvy and had ups and downs during the descent so both runs required braking and acceleration. I treated the first run in “drive gear the whole time” like I wanted to get the highest possible efficiency so I wasn’t accelerating quickly, very light on the throttle (foot off the throttle as much as possible while descending). The second run I was also trying to get maximum efficiency, but for that run I assumed being in neutral as much as possible on the descents would achieve higher efficiency— but it clearly did not.
 
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  • #50
What surprised me greatly is I was able to achieve higher overall efficiency on the round trip up and down the mountain than I can at constant 61mph on flat ground behind a big rig… I ascribe that to the engine essentially being off half the time which is not the case on flat ground.
 
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