Does the Coriolis force act on the propagation of light?

[Hepper]

Summary: Robert Sungenis explains the sagnac effect

Robert Sungenis, a well-known proponent of geocentrism, has authored a https://gwwdvd.com/what-allows-the-sun-to-revolve-around-the-earth/ in which he tries to explain the Sagnac effect as a result of Coriolis force (p.16-17), which he thinks is created by a rotating universe. He cites a paper in support of his claim: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308921264_Spinning_Earth_and_its_Coriolis_effect_on_the_circuital_light_beams_Verification_of_the_special_relativity_theory. I don't see how this supports his conclusion: even if Coriolis force causes the Sagnac effect, this would be absolutely consistent with an Earth that revolves around the sun, right? Is there someone on this forum who's able to evaluate Sungenis' claims?

 

[PeterDonis]

a well-known proponent of geocentrism

This is irrelevant to the actual question you are asking, so it will not be discussed in this thread. (Geocentrism itself is one of the topics we don't allow discussion of here.)

He cites a paper in support of his claim

ResearchGate is generally not a very reliable source for papers.

if Coriolis force causes the Sagnac effect

It can't, because the Coriolis force is frame-dependent; it only appears in a non-inertial, rotating frame. (That's why forces like the Coriolis force are often called "fictitious forces" or "pseudo-forces".) But the Sagnac effect is an invariant, independent of any choice of frame.

 

[sandokhan]

In 1921, Dr. Silberstein proposed that the Sagnac effect, as it relates to the rotation of the Earth or to the effect of the ether drift, must be explained in terms of the Coriolis effect: the direct action of Coriolis forces on counterpropagating waves.

http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Michelson-Gale/Silberstein.pdf

The propagation of light in rotating systems, Journal of the Optical Society of America, vol. V, number 4, 1921

Dr. Silberstein developed the formula published by A. Michelson using very precise details, not to be found anywhere else.

He uses the expression kω for the angular velocity, where k is the aether drag factor.

He proves that the formula for the Coriolis effect on the light beams is:

dt = 2ωσ/c2

Then, Dr. Silberstein analyzes the area σ and proves that it is actually a SUM of two other areas (page 300 of the paper, page 10 of the pdf document).

The effect of the Coriolis force upon the interferometer will be to create a convex and a concave shape of the areas: σ1 and σ2.

The sum of these two areas is replaced by 2A and this is how the final formula achieves its final form:

dt = 4ωA/c^2

A = σ1 + σ2

That is, the CORIOLIS EFFECT upon the light beams is totally related to the closed contour area.

In 1922, Dr. Silberstein published a second paper on the subject, where he generalizes the nature of the rays arriving from the collimator:

http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Historical Papers-Mechanics / Electrodynamics/Download/2645

In 1924, one year before the Michelson-Gale experiment, Dr. Silberstein published a third paper, where he again explicitly links the Coriolis effect to the counterpropagating light beams in the interferometer:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14786442408634503

The Coriolis force effect on the counterpropagating light beams is A PHYSICAL EFFECT.

The Sagnac effect is AN ELECTROMAGNETIC EFFECT.

The Coriolis effect arises when an interferometer is placed at a certain distance from the center of rotation (turntable, Earth) and has a much lower magnitude than the rotational Sagnac effect.

The actual path of the light beams will be physically altered, as proven by Dr. Silberstein: this is not an electromagnetic effect.

The Coriolis effect requires a closed contour area (closed loop) and two different radii to be measured.

It deals only with the area and the two different radii.

It is not related to the RADIUS OF ROTATION at all.

It simply measures the PHYSICAL EFFECT of rotation upon the light beams in an interferometer.By contrast, the SAGNAC EFFECT is an ELECTROMAGNETIC EFFECT.

No physical modifications of the actual path of the light beams takes place.

Dr. Silberstein reveals the error committed by M. von Laue in the paper published in 1911:

"Laue seems, by the way, to be under the misapprehension that the light rays relative to the rotating table are straight lines, which they are not."

Dr. Silberstein proved that the effect measured by Sagnac is A PHYSICAL EFFECT, a deflection/inflection of the light beams due to the CORIOLIS FORCE.

The Coriolis force is not fictitious, it is very real.

http://www.cartesio-episteme.net/ep8/maxwell8.pdf

Maxwell’s Original Equations http://www.cartesio-episteme.net/ep8/vorticity.pdf

The Cause of Coriolis Force

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.0392.pdf

The influence of Earth rotation in neutrino speed measurements between CERN and the OPERA detector

Markus G. Kuhn
Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge

For the first time ever, it was acknowledged that the SAGNAC EFFECT measured for the neutrino experiment is actually the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

As the authors did not indicate whether and how they took into account the Coriolis or Sagnac effect that Earth’s rotation has on the (southeastwards traveling) neutrinos, this brief note quantifies this effect.

And the resulting Coriolis effect (in optics also known as Sagnac effect) should be taken into account.

Here is the latest analysis of the SAGNAC EFFECT, using general relativity:

On the general relativistic framework of the Sagnac effect

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.03895.pdf

First, using Galilean transformations, the authors derive the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formula, which features the superluminal speed c+v.

Then, they stipulate that the local velocity of light is always c.

Using this hypothesis, then the authors proceed to derive the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula, using general relativity:

 

[Dale]

The Coriolis force effect on the counterpropagating light beams is A PHYSICAL EFFECT.

The Sagnac effect is AN ELECTROMAGNETIC EFFECT.

Electromagnetism is part of physics, so I am not certain what distinction you are trying to make. And “shouting” doesn’t make it clear.

 

[sandokhan]

And “shouting” doesn’t make it clear.

Noted.

Electromagnetism is part of physics, so I am not certain what distinction you are trying to make.

A Sagnac interferometer whose center of rotation does not coincide with its geometrical center (MGX/RLGs) has to register both the Coriolis effect and the Sagnac effect.

The Coriolis effect is a formula which involves the area and the angular velocity of the interferometer. It is subject to the Kassner-Ives effect (as described in my previous message on this thread).

The Sagnac effect, by contrast, is decribed by a formula which features the velocity (radius of rotation x angular velocity).

It is much larger than the Coriolis effect.

Let us compare the numbers for the MGX (Michelson-Gale experiment):

Full Coriolis effect formula (we include the latitude here):

4AΩsinΦ/c²

Full Sagnac effect formula (latitudes are included as well):

4Lv(cos²Φ₁ + cos²Φ₂)/c²Sagnac effect/Coriolis effect ratio:

R((cos²Φ₁ + cos²Φ₂)/hsinΦ

R = 4,250 km

h = 0.33924 km

The rotational Sagnac effect is much greater than the Coriolis effect for the MGX.

Φ₁ = Φ = 41°46' = 41.76667°

Φ₂ = 41°45' = 41.75°

R((cos²Φ₁ + cos²Φ₂) = 4729.885

hsinΦ = 0.225967

4729.885/0.225967 = 20,931.72


My global Sagnac effect formula, Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2) = 2[(l1v1 + l2v2)]/c², derived for the very first time for the MGX/RLGs, was also obtained by Professor P. Yeh in 1986, using PCMs:

φ = -2(φ2 - φ1) = 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 4π(V1L1 + V2L2)/λc

Since Δφ = 2πc/λ x Δt, Δt = 2(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/c² = 2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c²

Self-pumped phase-conjugate fiber-optic gyro, I. McMichael, P. Yeh, Optics Letters 11(10):686-8 · November 1986 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf (appendix 5.1)

 

[PeterDonis]

The Coriolis force effect on the counterpropagating light beams is A PHYSICAL EFFECT.

No, it's a coordinate effect. You can make it disappear by analyzing the same experiment in a non-rotating frame.

The Sagnac effect is AN ELECTROMAGNETIC EFFECT.

I'm not sure why you are distinguishing an electromagnetic effect from a physical effect; an electromagnetic effect is a physical effect.

 

[PeterDonis]

Thread closed for moderation.

 

[Dale]

In 1921, Dr. Silberstein proposed that the Sagnac effect, as it relates to the rotation of the Earth or to the effect of the ether drift, must be explained in terms of the Coriolis effect: the direct action of Coriolis forces on counterpropagating waves.

http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Michelson-Gale/Silberstein.pdf

The propagation of light in rotating systems, Journal of the Optical Society of America, vol. V, number 4, 1921

As a note to future visitors to this page. The quoted poster has misrepresented the content of this paper. There is no distinction in this paper between the Sagnac effect and the Coriolis effect.

This paper derived the Sagnac effect under the assumption of a dragged aether (eq 12), and under the theory of relativity (eq 12r). Unsurprisingly, the expressions differ only by the aether drag coefficient.

It may be that the other references make this distinction between the Coriolis effect and the Sagnac effect, but given the misrepresentation of the first paper I am not inclined trust or pursue this poster’s claims further regarding the content of other papers.

As a side note, In 1925 Michelson, Gale, and Pearson constructed the experiment proposed by Silberstein. The result was incompatible with a dragged aether and matched the relativistic prediction of Silberstein’s equation 12r. This signaled the death knell of the idea of a dragged aether.