Does The Noble Qur'an (Koran)

  • #26
Bilal
Also Catholic killed or kicked out the Jews and orthodox Christian. Thanks to Muslims in that time who sent many ships to transfer the Jews and orthodox Christian to Near East and North Africa.

Orthodox Christian in near East (Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan) are more patriot than Muslims because they never forget that Muslims who saved them from Crusaders and catholic church in Spain, while most of Jews ‘for unknown reasons are doing the opposite ...
 
  • #27
Lisa!
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Bilal said:
Yeas Lisa!, Arabic is my native language.
Lisa! said:
Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

QUOTE]
Ok, so you can tell us more about Koran. About the others, I think if they can't speak Arabic, they shouldn't be too sure of what they say. Because translation could change the meaning. We can have different understanding of one single quote which is said in our language. Now how can we be sure that the translator understood what koran means in the first hand? He may misunderstand it un/deliberately!
 
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  • #28
arildno
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To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

This is a waste of resources; young brains which should have received intellectual stimulation wither as a result of this nonsensical practice.

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.
 
  • #29
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Yeah? And let me guess.. it's the mullahs that told people it couldn't be translated?
 
  • #30
Art
arildno said:
To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

This is a waste of resources; young brains which should have received intellectual stimulation wither as a result of this nonsensical practice.

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.
Up until the fairly recent past all catholic masses were conducted in Latin. Not exactly the every day language of your average catholic church goer. - Immoral?
France too over the past few years has passed legislation to prevent any further anglization of their language to protect it. - Is this immoral too?
In Ireland there are areas where you can live only if you are a fluent Gaelic speaker. - Yet more immorality?
 
  • #31
Lisa!
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arildno said:
To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
It could be what Mullahs say. So you can't blame Islam for that.But Wait a minute, How do you know?

This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).
Give me some example? I mean which countries?

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.
I think it's the main problem. They try to gain more authority by mistranslating Koran. And I think all religions have the same problem!
 
  • #32
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The Smoking Man said:
Thanks for the demonstration of irrational prejudices based on ignorance by the way.

Your parents must be proud.

I am reminded of the old master who fills his pontential student's cup and then continues to pour even after it overflows.

Given your statements disguised as questions, I can see that responding would be a waste when you have already decided on the answer.
My statements are not based on Truth, they may be factual as far as I am aware, and you may be offended by this, and conclude it a (waste-of-time), but it does not detract away into pure Fantasy, beit Religous, Social or Philosophical.

If I learn, I learn by the freedom of thought I can enjoy, without any master weilding an instrument of force, be-it a magic wand, bamboo stick, rifle butt or even a Bible.

I wont be bashed in any form, if you do not like the heat?...get out of the forum.
 
  • #33
arildno
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Art said:
|Up until the fairly recent past all catholic masses were conducted in Latin. Not exactly the every day language of your average catholic church goer. - Immoral?
Quite correct.
It is fortunate that we've seen the end of this despicable practice in the West.
France too over the past few years has passed legislation to prevent any further anglization of their language to protect it. - Is this immoral too?
Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?

In Ireland there are areas where you can live only if you are a fluent Gaelic speaker. - Yet more immorality?
Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?
 
  • #34
arildno
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Lisa! said:
It could be what Mullahs say. So you can't blame Islam for that.But Wait a minute, How do you know?
The suras are reputedly the very words whispered by God to Muhammad during his trances. Thus, to change God's own words by translating them is to profanize them; they are no longer holy, but contaminated by the action of the translator.
Ask any Muslim.
 
  • #35
Art
arildno said:
Quite correct.
It is fortunate that we've seen the end of this despicable practice in the West.

Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?


Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?
Well 2 out of 3 of the languages I mentioned are practically extinct but learning them has not caused anbody's brain to wither. At least not that I've noticed. Don't you think giving people access to the original unadulterated text of religious documents is actually better than giving them a carefully constructed, abridged, translated version such as the bible for instance? which is merely "an interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"
 
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  • #36
Lisa! said:
Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

No Arabic but a broad Yorkshire and some Spanish in this.


Lisa! said:
I wanted to get more information about that time.
http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/spanish.html [Broken]
 
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  • #37
Lisa!
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arildno said:
The suras are reputedly the very words whispered by God to Muhammad during his trances. Thus, to change God's own words is to profanize them.
Ask any Muslim.
Have you ever asked?


And what do you think of muslems in general?
 
  • #38
arildno
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Art said:
Don't you think giving people access to the original unadulterated text of religious documents is actually better than giving them a carefully costructed, abridged, translated version such as the bible for instance?
This has never been restricted.
What has been restricted, is the opportunities for ordinary persons to gain the education to learn it (time&money).

Thus, to oppose the usage of texts in the vernacular is in effect, to deprive ordinary persons the ability to examine the texts for themselves (they do not speak or understand the "holy" language, and are thus at the outset excluded from offering criticisms worthy of further examination).
 
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  • #39
arildno
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Lisa! said:
Have you ever asked?
Sure.
And what do you think of muslems in general?
Ordinary folk trying to make a decent living.
 
  • #40
Bilal
Dear Lisa!

There are no translations that represent the real meaning 100% of the original document.

Koran is written in classical Arabic with ‘’fixed arrangement-signature documents’’. Even they tried to draw the same shape of the alphabets … This Koran is collected and written into period of the first generation of Muslims (few years after the death of Mohammed). Additionally there are some words in Koran need to be investigated because they could have more that one meaning.

Since early Islam, there are differences in interpretation of the Koran verses… These differences are accepted in Islam because it is strategy to convince the people to think and to investigate instead to follow the text blindly. (By the way, getting knowledge is the most honorable work in Islam ... it is called also Jihad for getting knowledge)

For this reason the first schools of laws in human history was established in the 10 century in Baghdad. These schools had different interpretations and they let the people to select the best for them. In that time, people of Iraq selected (Hanafi school), people of Syria selected (Shafee school) , North Africa and Andalusia (Maliki school) , Iran (Shia-Jaafri school) and Arabia selected (Hanbali school).

People in that time select the school of Islamic laws based on the situation of the society, so the multi-religions societies with modern cities (e.g. Andalusia and Syria) wanted school with high tolerance with non Muslims and women, while pure Muslims societies with many Bedouin (e.g. Arabia) care a lot about social customs and honor. Therefore they selected the school that focus on these issues.

I can tell you that Islam as ocean and you can find what you want inside based on what you look for. It could be religion of justice, war, peace, honor, brotherhood, theocracy, democracy, human rights …. It depends on how you understand it.

These schools used to tolerate with each other till we got in new age what called ‘’militant wahabi” who mixed the ultra extreme social customs (Hanbli school) with military activity. Those people do not tolerate with other Muslims or non Muslims and the result is what called now (AlQaeda )!!!

Hanbali School is the least popular school in Islamic world and it is limited to Gulf area (less than 5% of Muslims). Those who mixed this strict school with military activity are less than 1% among the follower of this school.

Lisa! said:
Ok, so you can tell us more about Koran. About the others, I think if they can't speak Arabic, they shouldn't be too sure of what they say. Because translation could change the meaning. We can have different understanding of one single quote which is said in our language. Now how can we be sure that the translator understood what koran means in the first hand? He may misunderstand it un/deliberately!
 
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  • #41
Lisa!
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arildno said:
Sure.

Ordinary folk trying to make a decent living.
Do you think they're open-minded or narrow-mided?
Do you think you can get along with them or not?
Are you afraid of them?
What do you mean by trying to make a decent living?
Where do they live? I mean do you think all of them are living in middle-east?
Have you ever talkedto any of them?
 
  • #42
Lisa!
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Bilal said:
Dear Lisa!

There are no translations that represent the real meaning 100% of the original document.

Koran is written in classical Arabic with ‘’fixed arrangement-signature documents’’. Even they tried to draw the same shape of the alphabets … This Koran is collected and written into period of the first generation of Muslims (few years after the death of Mohammed). Additionally there are some words in Koran need to be investigated because they could have more that one meaning.

Since early Islam, there are differences in interpretation of the Koran verses… These differences are accepted in Islam because it is strategy to convince the people to think and to investigate instead to follow the text blindly. (By the way, getting knowledge is the most honorable work in Islam ... it is called also Jihad for getting knowledge)

For this reason the first schools of laws in human history was established in the 10 century in Baghdad. These schools had different interpretations and they let the people to select the best for them. In that time, people of Iraq selected (Hanafi school), people of Syria selected (Shafee school) , North Africa and Andalusia (Maliki school) , Iran (Shia-Jaafri school) and Arabia selected (Hanbali school).

People in that time select the school of Islamic laws based on the situation of the society, so the multi-religions societies with modern cities (e.g. Andalusia and Syria) wanted school with high tolerance with non Muslims and women, while pure Muslims societies with many Bedouin (e.g. Arabia) care a lot about social customs and honor. Therefore they selected the school that focus on these issues.

I can tell you that Islam as ocean and you can find what you want inside based on what you look for. It could be religion of justice, war, peace, honor, brotherhood, theocracy, democracy, human rights …. It depends on how you understand it.

These schools used to tolerate with each other till we got in new age what called ‘’militant wahabi” who mixed the ultra extreme social customs (Hanbli school) with military activity. Those people do not tolerate with other Muslims or non Muslims and the result is what called now (AlQaeda )!!!
Thanks for your information.
 
  • #43
Bilal
Actually there are around 800 millions people speaking Arabic, only 300 millions are native Arab.

Those kids learn by heart the Koran, but also they learn Arabic …. As I know all Madrassa (school) are teaching in Arabic.
Reading Koran in its origin language is considered as part of prayers. Koran in its origin language is a fixed signature , which can not be represented by translation.

arildno said:
To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

This is a waste of resources; young brains which should have received intellectual stimulation wither as a result of this nonsensical practice.

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #44
Art
arildno said:
This has never been restricted.
What has been restricted, is the opportunities for ordinary persons to gain the education to learn it (time&money).

Thus, to oppose the usage of texts in the vernacular is in effect, to deprive ordinary persons the ability to examine the texts for themselves (they do not speak or understand the "holy" language, and are thus at the outset excluded from offering criticisms worthy of further examination).
If the catholic church were to give you access to the original texts on which the bible is based (which BTW they wouldn't) would you be able to read and understand the ancient Hebrew it is written in? Do you think most 'ordinary people' would? So don't you think your criticism of the Koran is equally if not more so valid in relation to catholicism?
 
  • #45
arildno
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Lisa! said:
Do you think they're open-minded or narrow-mided?
depends on the individual.
Do you think you can get along with them or not?
I get along with several Muslims perfectly.
Are you afraid of them?
Youth gangs hanging about the corners, yes (but I am equally afraid of Vietnamese youth gangs and indigenous Norwegian youth gangs).

What do you mean by trying to make a decent living?
For example by keeping alive all the minor mom&dad-shops in my neighboorhood.
Where do they live? I mean do you think all of them are living in middle-east?
Since I live in a part of Oslo where approx. 40% of the population are Muslims, no.
Have you ever talked to any of them?
Definitely, on a daily basis.
However, Urdu and Farsi (for example) are so dissimilar from the Norwegian language on so many levels (for example, on a so basic level as what types of SOUNDS are utilized) that it takes several years for 1.generation immigrants to learn Norwegian. This is unfortunately one of the major obstacle immigrants faces.

Chinese immigrants/students have, in fact, a much easier task: several of the linguistic subtleties in Norwegian that even other Europeans find very difficult to learn, is accidentally also present in Chinese.
 
  • #46
arildno
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Art said:
If the catholic church were to give you access to the original texts on which the bible is based (which BTW they wouldn't) would you be able to read and understand the ancient Hebrew it is written in? Do you think most 'ordinary people' would? So don't you think your criticism of the Koran is equally if not more so valid in relation to catholicism?
To catholicism, yes.
To various forms of Protestantism, no.
 
  • #47
Bilal
As I know who read the Koran translation or look for any extra knowledge (even non religious knowledge) is considered as honorable work in Islam. Just in prayers you should use Arabic, while you can give lessons in the mosque in other languages.

Simply, Muslims should keep by heart around 20 sentences in Arabic to do their prayers, and the rest up to him....

It is the same as Old Hebrew (which does not exist anymore!) are used in Jews prayers.

Most of educational systems in Islamic world are ''secular'' and do not allow to teach the religion more than 1.5 hour/week!!! (even in Algeria , Turkey and Tunsia no religious studies are allowed) So I do not know how you got your conclusions? Unless you talk about Taliban system and some religious schools in Pakistan?


arildno said:
The suras are reputedly the very words whispered by God to Muhammad during his trances. Thus, to change God's own words by translating them is to profanize them; they are no longer holy, but contaminated by the action of the translator.
Ask any Muslim.
 
  • #48
Bilal
If your conclusion is correct, could you explain how the vast majority of Muslims leaders through ages could not speak Arabic?

Saladin (Kurdish) , who defeated the crusaders , needed sometimes translators while he giving religious lessons in the Umayyad mosque in Damascus …additionally most of Ottoman Caliphates did not learn Arabic.

arildno said:
This has never been restricted.
What has been restricted, is the opportunities for ordinary persons to gain the education to learn it (time&money).

Thus, to oppose the usage of texts in the vernacular is in effect, to deprive ordinary persons the ability to examine the texts for themselves (they do not speak or understand the "holy" language, and are thus at the outset excluded from offering criticisms worthy of further examination).
 
  • #49
arildno
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Bilal said:
Most of educational systems in Islamic world are ''secular'' and do not allow to teach the religion more than 1.5 hour/week!!! (even in Algeria , Turkey and Tunsia no religious studies are allowed) So I do not know how you got your conclusions? Unless you talk about Taliban system and some religious schools in Pakistan?
Well, I don't believe you.
In Norway, there are several problems with young Muslim boys who must attend Quran school for 3-4 hours after ordinary shool, and have precious little time to do their homework.
 
  • #50
arildno
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Bilal said:
If your conclusion is correct, could you explain how the vast majority of Muslims leaders through ages could not speak Arabic?
This is simply a proof of what I said: Most muslims, including secular leaders do NOT understand Classical Arabic.
 

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