Does Y See Events in X as Simultaneous?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of simultaneity in the context of special relativity, specifically examining whether an observer Y, moving in a spaceship, would predict that another observer X, at rest in a different spaceship, sees two events (RED and BLUE) as simultaneous. The scenario involves two spaceships with observers positioned at their centers, and the events occurring at the edges of the spaceships.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that Y would agree that X sees the events as simultaneous because the light signals from both events reach X at the same time.
  • Others argue that Y, observing from a moving frame, would see the events occurring at different times due to his motion towards one of the events.
  • A later reply questions how Y could predict simultaneity in X's frame if Y perceives X moving towards event RED, suggesting that this motion affects Y's perception of the timing of the events.
  • Some participants clarify that the definition of simultaneity depends on the reference frame being considered, and that ambiguity in defining the frame can lead to confusion in predictions about simultaneity.
  • There is a discussion about whether Y can analyze the situation from X's frame and how that affects his predictions regarding simultaneity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on whether Y would predict that X sees the events as simultaneous. While some assert that Y would agree with X's simultaneity, others maintain that Y's perspective as a moving observer leads him to conclude that the events are not simultaneous in his frame.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities of simultaneity in special relativity, particularly the dependence on the observer's frame of reference. There are unresolved questions about how predictions are made based on different frames and the implications of relative motion on the perception of event timing.

Inhsdehkc
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Suppose two spaceships A (at rest) and B(moving right with velocity v relative to A) one above the other with observer X in A and Y in B,both at the middle of the their spaceship.Let two events event RED and event BLUE strike at the edges(RED at left edge) of the both spaceship when Y is just above X.Then with respect to X the two events will be simultaneous whereas for Y event Blue will occur first than event red.My question if i was Y then what would i predict for X whether X will see two events simultaneously or not??(Does my question make sense?)
p.s. my english so poor sorry for ur inconvenince.Thanks in advance.
 
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Yes, Y would agree that X does see the events as happening simultaneously, because he also see the light signals from the red and blue events arrive at X's central position at the same time.

Both Y and X agree that the events were not simultaneous in the Y frame but were simultaneous in the X frame.<Edited yet again. Hope I have X and Y the right way round now>
 
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Inhsdehkc said:
Suppose two spaceships A (at rest) and B(moving right with velocity v relative to A) one above the other with observer X in A and Y in B,both at the middle of the their spaceship.Let two events event RED and event BLUE strike at the two edges(RED at left edge) of the spaceship when Y is just above X.Then with respect to X the two events will be simultaneous whereas for Y event Blue will occur first than event red.My question if i was Y then what would i predict for X whether X will see two events simultaneously or not??(Does my question make sense?)
p.s. my english so poor sorry for ur inconvenince.Thanks in advance.
If you mean the two events occurred simultaneously in X's rest frame at the two ends of his spaceship A, then, yes, Y will see that the light from those two events will propagate toward X and meet him simultaneously, even though, to Y, those two events are not simultaneous in his rest frame. Whether or not you could predict this, is another question as you would have to have prior knowledge of everything that was going to happen in order to make such a prediction.
 
ghwellsjr said:
If you mean the two events occurred simultaneously in X's rest frame at the two ends of his spaceship A, then, yes, Y will see that the light from those two events will propagate toward X and meet him simultaneously, even though, to Y, those two events are not simultaneous in his rest frame. Whether or not you could predict this, is another question as you would have to have prior knowledge of everything that was going to happen in order to make such a prediction.

But relative to Y ,X is moving towards event red with same velocity 'v'(comparable to c),then won't Y see that Event red reached X before blue??( as before X can perdict that Y will see event blue before event red as Y is moving towards event blue with velocity v relative to X,cannot Y say that X will meet event red at first??)
 
yuiop said:
Yes, Y would agree that X sees the the events as happening simultaneously because he also see the light signals from the red and blue events arrive simultaneously at X's central position.

Both Y and X agree that the events were not simultaneous in the Y frame but were simultaneous in the X frame.

Sorry.but i am not getting this.how could Y agree that X would see both events simultaneously as Y will see that X is moving towards event red with same velocity v??
 
Inhsdehkc said:
Sorry.but i am not getting this.how could Y agree that X would see both events simultaneously as Y will see that X is moving towards event red with same velocity v??
Sorry, I accidentally switched X and Y around. I will edit my post to correct that.
 
yuiop said:
Yes, Y would agree that X does not see the events as happening simultaneously, because he also see the light signals from the red and blue events arrive at X's central position at different times.

Both Y and X agree that the events were not simultaneous in the X frame but were simultaneous in the Y frame.<Edited. Hope I have X and Y the right way round now>

Sorry,but you again messed up with X and Y.The two events are never simultaneous in Y frame!They are simultaneous in X frame.My question is just, will Y predicts that events to be simultaneous in X frame or not?
 
Inhsdehkc said:
ghwellsjr said:
If you mean the two events occurred simultaneously in X's rest frame at the two ends of his spaceship A, then, yes, Y will see that the light from those two events will propagate toward X and meet him simultaneously, even though, to Y, those two events are not simultaneous in his rest frame. Whether or not you could predict this, is another question as you would have to have prior knowledge of everything that was going to happen in order to make such a prediction.
But relative to Y ,X is moving towards event red with same velocity 'v'(comparable to c),then won't Y see that Event red reached X before blue??( as before X can perdict that Y will see event blue before event red as Y is moving towards event blue with velocity v relative to X,cannot Y say that X will meet event red at first??)
That's why I started my post with "If". You have to define which frame the events are simultaneous in which you did not do. If they are simultaneous in frame A (which is what I assumed you meant), then X sees the light from them arrive at his location simultaneously and so does Y. That's the definition of simultaneity in Special Relativity. If you instead meant that they were simultaneous in frame B, then Y will see the light from the events arrive at his location simultaneously. What happens depends on what you say happens but you can't have it be both ways or be ambiguous.
 
ghwellsjr said:
That's why I started my post with "If". You have to define which frame the events are simultaneous in which you did not do. If they are simultaneous in frame A (which is what I assumed you meant), then X sees the light from them arrive at his location simultaneously and so does Y. That's the definition of simultaneity in Special Relativity. If you instead meant that they were simultaneous in frame B, then Y will see the light from the events arrive at his location simultaneously. What happens depends on what you say happens but you can't have it be both ways or be ambiguous.

I have already mentioned that the events are simultaneous in X frame(sorry if it wasn't clear).
But how will Y predicts that both events are simultaneous in X frame as he will see that X is moving towards event red with same velocity v relative to him??
 
  • #10
Inhsdehkc said:
I have already mentioned that the events are simultaneous in X frame(sorry if it wasn't clear).
But how will Y predicts that both events are simultaneous in X frame as he will see that X is moving towards event red with same velocity v relative to him??
Y can use the A frame to analyze the situation just like we can. But as far as what Y sees from his rest frame B, he will determine that the events occurred at different times and that's why the light from them reach X simultaneously.
 
  • #11
ghwellsjr said:
Y can use the A frame to analyze the situation just like we can. But as far as what Y sees from his rest frame B, he will determine that the events occurred at different times and that's why the light from them reach X simultaneously.

yoU mean Y viewing from his rest frame B to X (throug a telescope or by any other) will see events occurring simultaneously or at different times in X??
 
  • #12
Inhsdehkc said:
Sorry,but you again messed up with X and Y.The two events are never simultaneous in Y frame!They are simultaneous in X frame.My question is just, will Y predicts that events to be simultaneous in X frame or not?
It appears I had it right the first time before you threw me off course. I have edited my original post back to how it was.

Further to your questions here. Y does not see the red and blue events as simultaneous in his own reference frame, but he does agree that from X's point of view the events would appear to be simultaneous to X in X's reference frame. Both X and Y agree that the light from red and blue events arrive at X's location simultaneously.
 
  • #13
Inhsdehkc said:
yoU mean Y viewing from his rest frame B to X (throug a telescope or by any other) will see events occurring simultaneously or at different times in X??
When an observer is actually watching what previously happened through a telescope or just with his bare eyes, he has to wait for the images of those remote events to propagate to him. Then he can use any frame, in which light is defined to propagate at c, to assign co-ordinates for when and where those remote events occurred. Different frames will assign different co-ordinates to events but they will all agree on what each observer actually sees.
 

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