Doubt about irrotational flows

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of irrotational flows in hydrodynamics, particularly focusing on the apparent contradiction between the definition of irrotational flow and the existence of irrotational vortices, also referred to as potential vortices. Participants explore the implications of circulation in closed paths and the conditions under which circulation is zero.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that in irrotational flow, the circulation around any closed path is zero, leading to confusion regarding the existence of irrotational vortices.
  • Another participant argues that there is no such thing as an irrotational vortex, stating that a vortex inherently has non-zero circulation.
  • A participant acknowledges the definition of irrotational flow and expresses confusion due to references in literature to irrotational vortices, which seem contradictory.
  • Some participants reference external sources, including a mathematical explanation of irrotational vortices, which provides further insight into the topic.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of topology in understanding irrotational vortices and suggests that it should be carefully demonstrated in educational contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the existence of irrotational vortices, with some asserting that they cannot exist while others reference literature that discusses them. The discussion remains unresolved as participants explore different perspectives and sources.

Contextual Notes

There are references to literature and external sources that discuss irrotational vortices, which may introduce additional assumptions or definitions that are not universally accepted in the discussion.

Rodrigo Schmidt
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So, i just started an elementar study on hidrodynamics and I'm stuck with something.
We have that the circulation in a closed path Γ is given by:
##C_Γ=\oint_Γ \vec v⋅\vec {dl}##
And that, in a irrotational flow, ##C_Γ = 0## for any given Γ.
But if we have an irrotational vortex wouldn't ##\oint_Γ \vec v⋅ \vec {dl} \neq 0## ?
This seems contradictory, and i really can't notice how to handle with this.
Sorry if this seems too basic, but I'm really just starting with this topic.
 
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I think the answer is that there is no such thing as an irrotational vortex. Am I missing something? In general a vortex has ## \oint \vec{v} \cdot d \vec{l} \neq 0 ##, and the more energetic it is, the larger this integral. Irrotational (non-rotational) means there are no vortexes (vortices) present. ## \\ ## Irrotational has ## \nabla \times \vec{v}=0 ##, which means by Stokes theorem ## \oint \vec{v} \cdot d \vec{l}=0 ## everywhere.
 
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Charles Link said:
Irrotational has ## \nabla \times \vec{v}=0## , which means by Stokes theorem ## \oint \vec{v} \cdot d \vec{l}=0 ## everywhere.
That's exactly what i tought, but the thing is that in my book and in some internet sources there are mentions of supposedly irrotational vortexes (which are also called potential vortexes), which seems very strange and confusing to me.
 
Rodrigo Schmidt said:
That's exactly what i tought, but the thing is that in my book and in some internet sources there are mentions of supposedly irrotational vortexes (which are also called potential vortexes), which seems very strange and confusing to me.
The mathematical stack exchange gives a brief explanation of what you are referring to. This is the first time I have seen this kind of thing, but their explanation with an animated diagram gives an illustration of it. https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/428839/irrotational-vortices
 
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Charles Link said:
The mathematical stack exchange gives a brief explanation of what you are referring to. This is the first time I have seen this kind of thing, but their explanation with an animated diagram gives an illustration of it. https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/428839/irrotational-vortices
Thank you very much! It seems strange, but it's more clear to me now!
 
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Well, the socalled "irrotational vortex" or "potential vortex" is among the nicest examples for the importance of topology in "classical vector analysis". One should demonstrate it with great care to any student when disucssing Poincare's lemma. I've done this already in these forums

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/struggling-with-ab-effect.872156/#post-5477281

For your purposes, you can ignore that it is in a discussion about the Aharonov-Bohm effect, although it's one of the most fascinating applications of these kind of topological arguments in physics.
 
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