Earthing/Grounding Alternatives

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The discussion centers on the importance of proper earthing systems in electrical setups, particularly in homes with 220V outlets. It emphasizes that alternatives like using a sealed container of water for grounding are ineffective and potentially dangerous, as they do not provide a reliable path for excess charge. Participants clarify that grounding is crucial for safety, helping to maintain low potentials during electrical faults and lightning strikes, and that altering grounding systems can violate electrical codes and insurance policies. The conversation also touches on the differences in grounding practices across countries and the risks associated with improper wiring. Overall, maintaining a compliant and effective earthing system is essential for electrical safety.
  • #31
sheldon said:
OK Averagesupernova is correct on his example, and not to argue, I just would like to ask a question then. When you have a hot wire and the system is not grounded to earth, do you have voltage between the hot and Earth ground?

Simple question, but not a simple answer. E fields exist between the Earth and the electrical wiring in the home. When you close a light switch, the electrons in the wire are set in motion and produce an electro-magnetic field exactly in the same manner, as does a radio station when it generates an EM field in the antenna. There also exists the natural electro static field between the Earth’s surface and any point in the atmosphere. If memory serves, there may be several hundred volts difference in potential measurable between your head and feet when standing upright in a pasture.

When measuring these potentials, the results will vary depending on how you make the measurement. If you wish to measure the natural static E-field, you will need to use a DC volt meter with an extremely high input resistance, the lower the input resistance, the lower the reading. Of course all depends on the atmospheric conditions at the time of measurement. Avoid doing this if there’s an anvil shaped cloud overhead.

Your question really concerns the EM fields generated by the household wiring. Again, the result will depend on the measurement. Let's assume you have two 10 foot ground rod buried in the ground separated by 5 feet and make a resistance measurement. The resistance will vary considerably dependant primarily on the moisture content of the Earth. One could expect readings of tens of ohms per foot to megohms per foot. Generally speaking, the Earth is a poor conductor. If you measure the potential difference between one of the conductors in the home to a ground rod and the home wiring is not referenced (connected) to the Earth, what do you measure? The 60Hz radiated EM field will produce a potential difference between the wiring and the Earth. When you connect the voltmeter between the wiring and the Earth, the internal impedance of the meter will be in parallel to the impedance of the Earth and the radiated field. In other words the impedance of the meter greatly influences the measurement. With a 20,000 ohms per volt AC meter, I’d guess 20 –70vac. With a 1000 ohms per voltmeter, I’d guess only a few volts.

What about the safety aspect in a non-earth referenced system when a person is touching the “hot” black wire of an extension cord and standing on the ground with bare feet? How much current will pass through a person’s hand, through his feet to the Earth. In this scenario with a direct connection to the hot wire, the radiated field can be ignored due to its high impedance. It’s simply a guess, but the impedance of the Earth, body impedance, and the capacitive and inductive impedance of the entire system would limit the current. This would likely be on the order of micro amps, possibly milliamps and not noticed by the individual. In hospital OR’s and in other intentionally non-earth referenced systems (gas stations?), I believe the total impedance must be maintained above one (1)megohm. The above scenario is “safer” then the Earth referenced system, wherein only the impedance of the Earth and the person’s body would limit current flow. In ideal conditions that current could be quite high, perhaps several amperes with household voltages and capable of causing death.

Why do we use the less safe Earth referenced power distribution system? IMHO the hundreds of thousands of miles of high voltage conductors from the Utility electrical generators to the home are coupled to the Earth via the total inductance and capacitance of the system. The total impedance of the system would be quite low and comparable to a direct wire connection. I believe the non-earth referenced system would require the utilities to also run an additional common conductor (“Y versus Delta configuration) besides the three phases thus adding to the expense and decreasing reliability. If the load was completely balanced, no current would flow in the additional conductor but one could not expect the load to be always balanced.
 
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  • #32
Is that a yes?
 
  • #33
sheldon,

If the electrical system is isolated from the earth, it may or may not have a potential with respect to it. If it had a large potential, it would not last long, since ions in the air would carry away the difference in charge. If the wiring is truly isolated from the earth, no significant current will ever flow between it and the Earth -- but it and the Earth can be at wildly different potentials.

- Warren
 
  • #34
chroot said:
sheldon,

If the electrical system is isolated from the earth, it may or may not have a potential with respect to it. If it had a large potential, it would not last long, since ions in the air would carry away the difference in charge. If the wiring is truly isolated from the earth, no significant current will ever flow between it and the Earth -- but it and the Earth can be at wildly different potentials.

- Warren


Ok then my case is true that you can be shocked or electricuted in a system that is not Earth grounded via the neutral? after all its the center tap of the xformer right?
 
  • #35
By definition the neutral is the grounded conductor, but I understand your intent so I won’t bicker.

There must be a complete circuit path for current flow. In your scenario, can you describe the current path?
 
  • #36
well in this case you become the path for current to travel from the neutral to the earth, if the system is grounded to Earth via grounding rod the current will take the path of least resistance through the ground wire instead of your body.



GENIERE said:
By definition the neutral is the grounded conductor, but I understand your intent so I won’t bicker.

There must be a complete circuit path for current flow. In your scenario, can you describe the current path?
 
  • #37
sheldon said:
Ok then my case is true that you can be shocked or electricuted in a system that is not Earth grounded via the neutral?
Not correct.
Sheldon said:
after all its the center tap of the xformer right?
Correct.
sheldon said:
well in this case you become the path for current to travel from the neutral to the earth…
OK, current flows from the neutral, through you, to the Earth, to where? The current path is not complete. So far we have an open circuit.

...
 
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  • #38
If you have a difference in potential and create a path the charges will try and equal through the conductor. Think of the neutral as hot and the Earth as neutral. Ok well I am starting to get discouraged, I just don't want anybody to get hurt thinking that in a system that is not Earth grounded nothing will happen to them if they accidently touch the neutral and are holding onto a water pipe (earth ground). If you choose to do so heading my warning then at least I tryed the best I could to explain.



GENIERE said:
Not correct.
Correct.

OK, current flows from the neutral, through you, to the Earth, to where? The current path is not complete. So far we have an open circuit.

...
 
  • #39
Sheldon. You are assuming that the neutral when not connected to the Earth is a shock hazard. Correct? Assuming that no other part of that particular system (secondary circuit of the transformer) has leakage to ground it is NOT a shock hazard. It is no more of a shock hazard than a bunch of wire suspended by insulators stretching between a number of poles. If it were the case that current would leave the neutral and go into the ground then someone would be paying for it in the electric bill. In order to qualify as current electricity and not a static buildup there needs to be a path from the source, through the victim, and back to the source. In an isolated system no such path exists. Part of the path exists when you touch the neutral. But until the path is completed by means of current flowing back out of the ground and into another tap on the secondary of the transformer no complete circuit is established and no shock will ocurr. The only possibility of a shock is from static buildup and that is VERY unlikely due to fact that there is enough leakage in the system (even through slightly humid air around metal conductors) to keep a charge from building up.

BTW, anyone who grabs onto something electrical and does not understand in their own mind what is going on and are just simply taking someone elses word for it is a candidate for natural selection.
 

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