Easy Tank Model? Outflow of tank proportional to volume of tank.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around modeling the outflow of water from a tank that is controlled to be proportional to the tank's volume. Participants explore the implications of different inflow rates, including constant and periodic (sinusoidal) inflow, and how to set the proportionality constant for the outflow control mechanism. The focus is on developing a differential equation to represent the system and addressing specific parts of a homework problem.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a model where the outflow rate is proportional to the volume of the tank, suggesting that the outflow can be expressed as f0 = Vc, where c is the constant of proportionality.
  • Another participant suggests writing a differential equation (DE) for the system, stating that the inflow minus outflow equals the rate of change in volume.
  • There is a discussion about the correct formulation of the DE, with participants debating whether it should be dV/dt = fi(t) - c*fo(t) or dV/dt = fi(t) - k*V(t), where k is the proportionality constant.
  • Clarification is sought regarding the meaning of "constant of proportionality," with one participant questioning if it refers to the target height of water.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the relationship between inflow and outflow, indicating a struggle to conceptualize the problem correctly.
  • Another participant confirms that the DE dV/dt = fi(t) - k*V(t) is correct and suggests that for part (b), the value of k can be determined to maintain a constant desired volume.
  • In addressing part (c), a participant suggests that the same principle applies for a sinusoidal inflow, proposing that the ratio of the sinusoidal inflow to the desired volume can be used to determine k.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the formulation of the differential equation, but there is some confusion regarding the interpretation of the constant of proportionality and its application in different scenarios. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to model the system under varying inflow conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and relationships between variables, particularly regarding the proportionality constant and its implications for maintaining a desired volume in the tank. There are also unresolved mathematical steps in deriving the correct model.

takbq2
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1. Suppose we have a tank partially fi lled with water. There is a pipe
feeding water to the tank as a variable
ow rate and there is also a drain
pipe with a computer controlled variable valve hooked to a sensor in
the tank. The valve opens exactly enough to let water drain from the
tank at a rate proportional to the volume of the tank. The program
allows for us to set one number: the constant of proportionality. Write
a model for this physical problem. Be sure to de ne all the variables
in your model. (b) Suppose the in
ow rate is constant. How should
the proportionality constant in the control mechanism be set to keep
the tank near a constant desired volume? (c) Suppose the in flow rate
is periodic. To be de nite let's say the flow rate is sinusoidal and
known exactly, how should the constant of proportionality be set for
the controller to best keep the tank at a constant desired volume.




Homework Equations


flow in = flow out (if desired in this case)



The Attempt at a Solution



I call f0 the flow out and fi the flow in.
fi varies with, say, t.

f0 is proportional to V, the volume of the tank. The volume of the tank is: V = the volume initially in the tank, Vi, + fi(t) - f0.

f0 is proportional to V by c., but in my statement about the V, f0 is on that side so it can't really be in the model. If I could get help figuring out the model, I could answer parts (b) and (c) pretty easily it seems.

My first proportion was f0=Vc thus,
f0 = (Vi+fi(t))c

But I know this can't be right because in answering part b, fi would need to be as close as possible to f0, but any amount for c would mean that the amount out was equal t the entire amount in the tank.

help?
 
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Use the fact that the "inflow minus outflow" is equal to the rate of change in volume to write a simple DE (differential equation) for the system. The DE is the system model.
 
dV/dT = c(fi(t)-fo) ?

On second thought,

dV/dt = fi(t) - c*fo(t) ??

seems better, can someone verify this or otherwise please? Thanks!
 
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What does "constant of proportionality" mean? Is it h, the target height of water?
 
takbq2 said:
dV/dT = c(fi(t)-fo) ?

On second thought,

dV/dt = fi(t) - c*fo(t) ??

seems better, can someone verify this or otherwise please? Thanks!

That's on the right track, but use the fact, in the problem statement, that the outflow is proportional to V so as to write your DE with just one input variable (f_i) and one state variable (V). The state variable V also happens to be the output variable in this case, which is nice.
 
uart said:
That's on the right track, but use the fact, in the problem statement, that the outflow is proportional to V so as to write your DE with just one input variable (f_i) and one state variable (V). The state variable V also happens to be the output variable in this case, which is nice.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. They are proportional so f_out = kV, thus,

dV/dt = fin(t) - k*V(t)

which is not right? >=\
 
Well I know it's not right. I'm just coming to the same answers over and over again because I've done it so much I can't think outside my current train of thought :S

It must be

q_in(t) = dV/dt + kV ... one final check on this please??
 
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takbq2 said:
I'm sorry, I'm confused. They are proportional so f_out = kV, thus,

dV/dt = fin(t) - k*V(t)

which is not right? >=\

No that's the correct DE for the system.

Now for part b) you can take F_in as a constant and look at what value of "k" you require to keep V constant, say V_desired. Note that V = const means dV/dt = 0.
 
thanks a lot for your help, uart. I got part b, K would = Qin/V. Working on last part.. if it is a sinusoid nothing changes, you still want amount into equal amount out, so just sinusoid(t)_in/V = k for part (c) I would think
 
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