Electric, magnetic, and electromagnetic fields

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the differences and interrelations between electric, magnetic, and electromagnetic fields, exploring their definitions, mathematical representations, and conceptual frameworks. Participants examine classical and relativistic perspectives on these fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether electric, magnetic, and electromagnetic fields are distinct or interrelated, suggesting that they may be manifestations of the same underlying phenomena.
  • One participant proposes that classical magnetic interactions can be viewed as a consequence of electrostatic interactions when accounting for special relativity.
  • Another participant describes the electric field as a 3-vector and the magnetic field as another 3-vector, while the electromagnetic field is presented as a 2-form with six components, indicating a mathematical relationship among them.
  • There is a discussion about the representation of the electromagnetic field as a tensor, with some participants noting the advantages of using a 2-form over a tensor for clarity in equations.
  • Participants introduce the concept of pseudovectors and their relation to tensors, suggesting that certain representations can simplify the understanding of these fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the relationships between the fields, with some suggesting they are fundamentally the same under certain conditions, while others maintain that they are distinct entities. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the extent of their interrelation.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on specific interpretations of classical and relativistic physics, and there are unresolved questions about the mathematical representations of the fields, including the implications of using tensors versus 2-forms.

holtvg
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What are the differences between these three types of fields or are they all interrelated and the same.
 
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just to add, explicitly, that the classical magnetic interaction can be understood as a manifestation of only the electrostatic interaction but with the effects of (special) relativity taken into consideration. i.e. the magnetic field and resulting force on charged particles is essentially nothing new or different than the electric field. but, in classical physics (where there is no SR concepts such as time dilation, etc.), the magnetic field has to be described or modeled as a different or separate action than the electrostatic field.
 
Welcome to PF!

holtvg said:
What are the differences between these three types of fields or are they all interrelated and the same.

Hi holtvg! Welcome to PF! :smile:

Electric field: a 3-vector: (Ex, Ey, Ez)

Magnetic field: a 3-vector: (Bx, By, Bz)

Electromagnetic field: a 2-form (with 6 components): (Ex, Ey, Ez;Bx, By, Bz)

They are interrelated in the same way that the x and y components of a vector are interrelated … if you rotate the x and y axes, the x and y components of the same vector get mixed together a little.

Similarly, observers with different velocities see the E and B fields mixed together … for example, a stationary electron has an E field and a zero B field, but a moving electron has slightly different E field, and a small B field also. :smile:

(this is not a relativity thing … Maxwell knew all about it!)
 


tiny-tim said:
Electric field: a 3-vector: (Ex, Ey, Ez)

Magnetic field: a 3-vector: (Bx, By, Bz)

Electromagnetic field: a 2-form (with 6 components): (Ex, Ey, Ez;Bx, By, Bz)

a tensor?
 
granpa said:
a tensor?

Hi granpa! :smile:

Yes, any 2-form can be represented by an antisymmetric second-order tensor.

But a 2-form is easier because:

i] it has only 6 components, while the tensor has 16 components, 4 of which are 0, and 6 of the remaining 12 are minus the other 6;

ii] it makes many equations much more obvious (in partiuclar, Lorentz force and Maxwell's equations). :smile:
 
sort of like a pseudovector. a shorthand way of writing a tensor.
 
Hi granpa! :smile:
granpa said:
sort of like a pseudovector. a shorthand way of writing a tensor.

Yes, a pseudovector in 3-space (like angular momentum, or any other cross-product of two 3-vectors) is a 2-form , and can be represented as an anti-symmetric tensor. :smile:

(though a pseudovector in 4-space is a 3-form, like current :wink:)
 

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