Energy stored in capacitor w/ dielectric

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the energy changes in a parallel plate capacitor when a dielectric material is inserted after the capacitor has been charged and isolated. Participants explore the implications of energy storage before and after the insertion of the dielectric, as well as the forces involved in the process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the energy stored in the capacitor changes from E1 to E2 when a dielectric is inserted, raising the question of where the "missing" energy goes.
  • Another participant inquires about the force required to insert the dielectric, suggesting that this force may be relevant to understanding the energy difference.
  • Some participants propose that the energy difference could be related to the work done by the electric field in attracting the dielectric material.
  • A later reply discusses the dynamics of the dielectric insertion, mentioning that if the capacitor is disconnected, the potential difference will decrease as the dielectric is inserted, while a connected capacitor would allow current to flow.
  • One participant introduces a hypothetical scenario where the dielectric oscillates back and forth after being pulled into the capacitor, suggesting energy loss due to electromagnetic radiation.
  • Another participant challenges the idea that the voltage across the isolated capacitor is zero, asserting that the voltage remains nonzero despite the capacitor being isolated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints regarding the energy changes and forces involved, with no consensus reached on the exact mechanisms or implications of the energy difference when inserting the dielectric.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the behavior of the capacitor when isolated versus connected to a power source, as well as the implications of energy dissipation during the insertion of the dielectric.

kbar1
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Suppose a (parallel plate) capacitor of capacitance C is charged to a potential difference V and then disconnected and isolated. Energy stored E1= Q2/2C.

Now if a material of appropriate dimensions and dielectric constant K is fully inserted between the plates, energy stored E2= Q2/2KC.

E2 < E1.

My question is: where did the "missing" energy go?
 
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How much force does it take to insert the dielectric?
 
DaleSpam said:
How much force does it take to insert the dielectric?

Pardon me if I'm wrong (I'm new to this topic), but does the force applied to push the dielectric matter? The only thing nagging me is that the energy stored in the two cases is different, and I'd like to know where the difference went.
 
kbar1 said:
Pardon me if I'm wrong (I'm new to this topic), but does the force applied to push the dielectric matter?
Certainly it matters. It can do work on the system or allow the system to do work on the environment.

I don't know the answer to your question, but that is where I would look first.
 
Never thought about it. Does the electric field set up between the plates oppose the insertion of the dielectric?

Wild guess on my part: The energy is used to attract the dielectric, because the capacitor system with it has lesser energy (i.e. more preferable) than the capacitor without the dielectric. Comment?
 
That is my guess also, but I don't know.
 
When you approach the capacitor with dielectric material, the capacitor will in fact attract the material. This pulling force performs work on the material and can be extracted or dissipated. The final energy of the condenser is lower by this amount of extracted/dissipated work.
 
Guess that clears it. Thanks all.
 
Note: To add a bit of understanding (or possible confusion!)
If the capacitor happens to be disconnected from the charging source / battery, the PD across it will reduce as the dielectric is inserted. If it is connected to the source then a current will flow during the insertion because the PD will be held constant by the battery.

It may be of interest to consider what exactly happens to the energy in both of these cases. If the capacitor is disconnected and the arrangement is frictionless (and no other energy losses - zero internal resistance in the battery, etc.), the dielectric will be pulled into the middle but then its KE will carry it out the other side and it will oscillate for ever, back and forth.
But there will be a smart 'someone' who realizes that EM energy will be radiated due to the AC in the system, so the oscillations will always die down, in the end.
 
  • #10
Jano L. said:
When you approach the capacitor with dielectric material, the capacitor will in fact attract the material. This pulling force performs work on the material and can be extracted or dissipated. The final energy of the condenser is lower by this amount of extracted/dissipated work.

sice the formula of force exerted on a dielectric is {εb(v^2)(k-1)}/d

sice the capacitor is isolated so v=0 hence force is zero
 
Last edited:
  • #11
Just because the capacitor is isolated doesn't mean that V=0; I don't know what would lead you to believe that. Per the setup V is nonzero and there is a force.
 

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