Enthelpy for Constant Pressure and Constant Volume Systems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of enthalpy in the context of constant pressure and constant volume systems, particularly focusing on the implications of the term ##dPV## in the enthalpy equation and the conditions under which certain assumptions, like ##dS=0##, can be applied. The scope includes theoretical considerations and mathematical reasoning related to thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant explains the derivation of enthalpy at constant pressure and questions the physical meaning of the ##dPV## term in the context of constant volume systems.
  • Another participant presents a rearrangement of the enthalpy equation leading to the Gibbs relation, suggesting that if ##dS=0##, it simplifies to ##dH = v\,dP##, which relates to adiabatic processes.
  • A request for a physical example of a system that performs reversible shaft work is made, indicating a desire for practical applications of the theoretical concepts discussed.
  • A later reply emphasizes caution regarding the assumption of ##dS=0##, noting that while some systems can be modeled as isentropic, real-world factors such as heat losses must be considered, which complicates the assumption.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the assumption ##dS=0##, with some supporting its use in modeling while others caution against it due to real-world complexities. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of this assumption in practical scenarios.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the assumptions made in thermodynamic modeling, particularly concerning heat transfer and the applicability of isentropic conditions in real systems.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and professionals in thermodynamics, particularly those interested in the applications of enthalpy and the conditions under which certain thermodynamic assumptions can be applied.

kq6up
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I understand why entropy (a state function) is very useful in chemistry. Since most chemistry systems are at constant pressure, ##\Delta H=Q_v## from the derivation below:

##H=U+PV##
##dH=dU+dPV+PdV##
##dU=\delta Q-\delta W##
## dU=\delta Q-PdV##
## dH=\delta Q+dPV##
##dPV=0##
## dH=\delta Q_v##

However, for constant volume work is not done, so that seems to leave this pesky ##dPV## term. That is:

##dH=\delta Q_p+dPV## What is the meaning of this term. ##PdV## is obviously microscopic work, but what the other term resulting from the product rule means physically escapes me.

Thanks,
Chris
 
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Use the following logic,
$$ \text{d}H = \delta\text{Q} + v\,\text{d}P $$
knowing that,
$$ \text{d}S = \frac{\delta\text{Q}}{T} $$
rearrange to get the Gibbs relation
$$ \text{d}H = T\text{d}S+ v\,\text{d}P $$
Assume boldly $$\text{d}S=0$$ And you get reversibly adiabatic shaft work.
$$ \text{d}H = v\,\text{d}P $$
 
I follow the math, but can you give me a physical example of a system that reversibly does shaft work.

Thanks,
Chris
 
Well before I answer this we must be very careful in this assumption $$\text{d}S=0$$ Many physical systems such as turbines, compressors and pumps are very well insulated therefore it is possible to consider any heat transfer negligible and ultimately they may be modeled as isentropic.

However in reality, due to many factors there are heat losses in the system therefore the assumption $$\text{d}S=0$$ does not hold. The concept is still usable in modeling, but you would have to account for the heat transfer somehow.
 

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