Entropy of a Gas Under Pressure: Does Temperature Trump Pressure?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between temperature, pressure, and entropy in gases, particularly under conditions of compression and expansion. Participants explore whether the effects of temperature on entropy outweigh those of pressure, and how these interactions may differ in adiabatic processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • RanCam questions whether an increase in temperature increases entropy more than an increase in pressure decreases it for a gas under pressure that is compressed, and vice versa for expansion.
  • Some participants suggest using the Sackur-Tetrode equation and the ideal gas law (PV = N kT) to analyze the entropy of an ideal gas.
  • It is noted that if compression or expansion is adiabatic and reversible, entropy remains constant, while adiabatic and irreversible processes lead to an increase in entropy.
  • A general expression for changes in entropy for an ideal gas is provided: $$dS=nC_p\frac{dT}{T}-nR\frac{dP}{P}$$.
  • One participant requests clarification on how the expression for entropy changes is derived, indicating a desire for a deeper understanding of the underlying principles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the relationship between temperature, pressure, and entropy, with no consensus reached on whether temperature or pressure has a greater effect on entropy in the scenarios described.

Contextual Notes

Discussions include assumptions about ideal gas behavior and the conditions under which entropy changes occur, such as adiabatic processes. The derivation of the entropy change expression is not fully resolved, leaving some steps unexplained.

rancam
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Can anyone please answer this question? I have read that increased temperature increases entropy and increased pressure decreases entropy ,for a gas.And vice versa.decreased temperature decreases entropy and decreased pressure increases entropy.Can anyone please tell me for a gas under pressure that is compressed further does the increase in temperature increase the entropy more than the increase in pressure reduces it and for a gas under pressure that expands does the decrease in temperature decrease the entropy more than the decrease in pressure increases it.In other words does temperature trump pressure or vice versa.
And does it make any difference whether the gas (which is already under pressure) is compressed or expanded?
Thanx, RanCam
 
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Try looking at the Sackur-Tetrode equation, which gives an expression for the entropy of an ideal gas. That, together with the ideal gas law (PV = N kT) should allow you to express the entropy in any terms you want.
 
rancam said:
Can anyone please answer this question? I have read that increased temperature increases entropy and increased pressure decreases entropy ,for a gas.And vice versa.decreased temperature decreases entropy and decreased pressure increases entropy.Can anyone please tell me for a gas under pressure that is compressed further does the increase in temperature increase the entropy more than the increase in pressure reduces it and for a gas under pressure that expands does the decrease in temperature decrease the entropy more than the decrease in pressure increases it.In other words does temperature trump pressure or vice versa.
And does it make any difference whether the gas (which is already under pressure) is compressed or expanded?
Thanx, RanCam
If the compression or expansion is done adiabatically and reversibly, the entropy remains constant. If the compression or expansion is done adiabatically and irreversibly, the entropy increases.

In general, for an ideal gas, $$dS=nC_p\frac{dT}{T}-nR\frac{dP}{P}$$
 
Chestermiller said:
If the compression or expansion is done adiabatically and reversibly, the entropy remains constant. If the compression or expansion is done adiabatically and irreversibly, the entropy increases.

In general, for an ideal gas, $$dS=nC_p\frac{dT}{T}-nR\frac{dP}{P}$$

Could you elaborate on how this was obtained? Just the first step or two. I will try the rest.
 
CrazyNinja said:
Could you elaborate on how this was obtained? Just the first step or two. I will try the rest.
For a change between two closely neighboring equilibrium states of an ideal gas, the changes in enthalpy, entropy, and volume are related by
$$dH=TdS+VdP=nC_pdT$$
This is the first step.
 

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