Navigating Europe Graduate School Requirements for US Students

[WarPhalange]

How does it work?

I'm kind of interested in schools outside of the US (I mean, why not?) and I've started looking at websites because I'm graduating this coming year and was told to start applying early. What I see (from Oxford and Cambridge at least) are a 1st Honours and High 2nd Honours requirement or whatever. Being from the US, I have no idea what that means. Is that like some sort of GPA? A Wikipedia search found that 12% of graduates from UK universities get 1st Honours and 73% get 2nd Honours. So what's the big deal?

Secondly, I know that you need a Master's first. Is there an easy way to jump from a US bachelor's into Europe for a Ph.D.? Or would I first have to earn a Master's on my own coin somehow and then go to Europe? That seems like too much of a hassle if that's the case.

 

[oedipa maas]

It is *possible* to get funding to do an MSc in the UK - but not very likely.

http://www.phy.cam.ac.uk/research/applications/grad_basics.php

Are you interested only in British universities? What field would you like to go into?

 

[cristo]

How does it work?

I'm kind of interested in schools outside of the US (I mean, why not?) and I've started looking at websites because I'm graduating this coming year and was told to start applying early. What I see (from Oxford and Cambridge at least) are a 1st Honours and High 2nd Honours requirement or whatever. Being from the US, I have no idea what that means. Is that like some sort of GPA? A Wikipedia search found that 12% of graduates from UK universities get 1st Honours and 73% get 2nd Honours. So what's the big deal?

I don't understand your question "what's the big deal?" If you are trying to see whether your degree is (or will be) good enough to apply to a university in the UK, then you should check the admissions pages of the universities you are looking to apply to. Some departments do let students with a UK undergraduate degree in directly for a PhD (normally admitted on a masters programme, but then upgraded later), but I don't know about US degrees. The only people who will know are those in admissions departments.

You should consider the cost of a PhD in the UK as a first thought. International tuition fees are generally in the region of £13,000 per year (which does not include accomodation or living expenses). Then, depending on where you live, it can get pretty pricey to pay rent. There are also limited studentships available from the universities, so if you end up only securing a bursary from home (i.e. in $) you will have a very hard time trying to stretch that to cover rent, food, travel, etc..

 

[WarPhalange]

Are you interested only in British universities? What field would you like to go into?

Well anywhere where they speak English... so I guess maybe Scandinavia would fall into that? Switzerland?

I don't understand your question "what's the big deal?"

What is "first honours", "second honours" and why are they making a note of it to people if most people get them anyway?

You should consider the cost of a PhD in the UK as a first thought. International tuition fees are generally in the region of £13,000 per year (which does not include accomodation or living expenses). Then, depending on where you live, it can get pretty pricey to pay rent. There are also limited studentships available from the universities, so if you end up only securing a bursary from home (i.e. in $) you will have a very hard time trying to stretch that to cover rent, food, travel, etc..

I was under the assumption that if you are a TA or RA for your professor, you get tuition paid for + a monthly stipend. Well, that's how it works in the USA. Is that not how it goes in the UK?

 

[cristo]

What is "first honours", "second honours" and why are they making a note of it to people if most people get them anyway?

In the UK, degrees are classified into the following categories:
1 - an overall score of 70% or above, with about 10% of the year receiving the grade
2i - an overall score of 60% or above
2ii - an overall score of 50% or above
3 - an overall score of 40% or above

Most people get either a first or second class degree, but note that second class is split into two divisions (i and ii, or upper and lower). Hardly anyone gets a 3rd, since they normally just give up.

I was under the assumption that if you are a TA or RA for your professor, you get tuition paid for + a monthly stipend. Well, that's how it works in the USA. Is that not how it goes in the UK?

I'm afraid that's not how things work over here. There is no such thing as a TA (at least not one that gets a monthly stipend and whose wage is set). What you would call an RA would be what we would call a studentship. Since you are an international student, you will not qualify for any of the research council studentships, and thus can only apply for university-specific studentships, which are few and far between at most places. Then, even if you secure one of those, then you may only get your fees paid, and not given a stipend. Also, since there aren't that many of these studentships, I would imagine they go to the best students.. i.e. those with masters degrees.

Once you've got a place, there is normally a chance to make some extra cash as a TA, either marking or helping out in classes. However, this is not a monthly stipend, and depends on how much work you do.

So, to summarise, the UK system is, in general, nothing like that in the US. I would urge you to go and talk to an advisor, or a professor who knows about the UK system, as they will be able to give you the best advice.

 

[oedipa maas]

It would be worth looking at PhD programs in the Scandinavian countries, Germany and the Netherlands - very often graduate work in the sciences is in English. You might also consider universities in Ireland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

If you are not a UK or EU resident it is actually very difficult to get full-ride funding for graduate work in Britain. I would say that the Britain is the hardest country in the world for a foreign student to get a funded position in physics. This is partly due to competition for the available positions and partly due to poor policies in British universities which make doing a PhD financially unattractive. University personnel are starting to wake up to the fact that good students - especially good physics students - are going elsewhere for graduate work, but policy change will be slow.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/postgraduate/story/0,,2264030,00.html

 

[h0dgey84bc]

What I see (from Oxford and Cambridge at least) are a 1st Honours and High 2nd Honours requirement or whatever. Being from the US, I have no idea what that means. Is that like some sort of GPA? A Wikipedia search found that 12% of graduates from UK universities get 1st Honours and 73% get 2nd Honours. So what's the big deal?

Despite Cambridge and Oxford, saying they accept a 2:1 on the website, they don't!(well unless you've done some serious research in your undergrad years, and have a superb excuse lined up). A first should be seen as a minimum for these PhD programmes, as pretty much everyone, who thinks they are worthy to apply will have this.

As far as I can tell a 1st equates to a GPA of something like just below a 4.0 in the US system ( http://www.leeds.ac.uk/studyabroad/downloads/conversions.pdf ). It's basically a grade A in the US system. Although the whole conversion is really confusing me at the moment, the two system are so unalike.
I read on another forum ( http://www.newmediamedicine.com/for...dents/21826-us-uk-college-gpa-conversion.html) that Cambridge consider a GPA of 3.8 equivalent to a First.


As for doing a Masters first, isn't an undergraduate degree in the US four years long anyway?(vs a Bachelors in the UK which is three years, which is then followed usually by a one year masters) So I'd imagine you might have a chance at getting straight into a PhD, depending on what courses you've taken in those four years.

Funding is very tough to come by, there's always the Fullbright if you're a genious.

 

[Fearless]

I can give very detailed information about swedish graduate schools. just ask away.

I am wondering, how good are UCL, and the red bricks on the international scale. How do I get into one of those, and the golden question; how do I get into oxford/cambridge? What is the demands for extracurriculars, GPA (I assume 2i) and how should one phrase the personal letter?

 

[cristo]

Despite Cambridge and Oxford, saying they accept a 2:1 on the website, they don't!(well unless you've done some serious research in your undergrad years, and have a superb excuse lined up). A first should be seen as a minimum for these PhD programmes, as pretty much everyone, who thinks they are worthy to apply will have this.

The departments presumably set the lower limit at 2i since this is the lowest that the research councils will accept for their studentships.

As for doing a Masters first, isn't an undergraduate degree in the US four years long anyway?(vs a Bachelors in the UK which is three years, which is then followed usually by a one year masters) So I'd imagine you might have a chance at getting straight into a PhD, depending on what courses you've taken in those four years.

In the US, students take a wide range of "gen ed" classes, which add up to about a year of classes outside their "major." Thus, a student with a BSc in physics, say, from the UK (which takes 3 years) has done around the same amount of physics as a US student with a BS (4 years) majoring in physics. Thus, their four year degree is not the same as our four year (masters) degree.

 

[h0dgey84bc]

The departments presumably set the lower limit at 2i since this is the lowest that the research councils will accept for their studentships.

yep

In the US, students take a wide range of "gen ed" classes, which add up to about a year of classes outside their "major." Thus, a student with a BSc in physics, say, from the UK (which takes 3 years) has done around the same amount of physics as a US student with a BS (4 years) majoring in physics. Thus, their four year degree is not the same as our four year (masters) degree.

Ah yeah, good point. I forgot about the minor major thing.

 

[WarPhalange]

Okay, so let me recap what just happened here:

In the UK, getting money for graduate school is a lot harder and close to impossible for a foreign student. What if you have dual citizenship? I was born in Greece. Could I wriggle my way into there somehow?

Secondly, 1 and 2i mean high marks in your classes. But I don't understand the really high % of people getting them, then, because at least here things are graded on a curve, meaning that the person up top sets the grade and the entire class is never on the top, even if they are close.

Thirdly, yeah, I've done quite a bit of research and *might* even get my name on a published paper, but it doesn't look too good anymore. But I'll be getting 2 strong letters of recommendation and I need to find a 3rd.

Fourth, I was told that in Germany and France classes are in their respective languages. My E&M prof said so about Germany and a post doc I work with has a girl friend who went to grad school in France, which was all in French.

Lastly, how does the rest of Europe (including Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Scandinavia, whereever) look? Are the rules similar to the British ones or does it vary a lot? I am assuming since the whole EU thing is going on they are trying to get some sort of cohesion?

Fearless, I'd appreciate any info you have on graduate schools in Sweden. Such as which ones are the best, are classes in English or not, the Death Metal scene over there, and how I would pay for it.

Thanks for all your help, everyone.

 

[h0dgey84bc]

In the UK, getting money for graduate school is a lot harder and close to impossible for a foreign student. What if you have dual citizenship? I was born in Greece. Could I wriggle my way into there somehow?

hmm, if you have daul citizenship with Greece, you might stand a good chance. You would still struggle getting funding for the masters (even UK students struggle to fund a masters independent of their orginal degree, you would most likely need a loan of some kind), but if you somehow got the masters, then you would be eligible for the usual STFC award for the PhD I think, as an EU citizen. (I know someone from Cyprus who was awarded the STFC, just like normal)

Secondly, 1 and 2i mean high marks in your classes. But I don't understand the really high % of people getting them, then, because at least here things are graded on a curve, meaning that the person up top sets the grade and the entire class is never on the top, even if they are close.

As mentioned above, only around 10% of the year obtain a First, do you consider that a lot?

Fourth, I was told that in Germany and France classes are in their respective languages. My E&M prof said so about Germany and a post doc I work with has a girl friend who went to grad school in France, which was all in French.

yep

Lastly, how does the rest of Europe (including Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Scandinavia, whereever) look? Are the rules similar to the British ones or does it vary a lot? I am assuming since the whole EU thing is going on they are trying to get some sort of cohesion?

If you're limited to programmes in English, the only other place I can think of, other than those mentioned, is Amsterdam...they have an amazing string theory centre, if that's your bag. http://www.science.uva.nl/research/itf/strings/phdpage.html
All in english, and they have a masters programme here too (with limited financial aid). This place is one of the best in Europe for string theory, so I am told, and would def be a great experience. Awesome thing about Holland too, is that they treat their PhD's as employee's and actually pay a pretty decent salary.

 

[WarPhalange]

As mentioned above, only around 10% of the year obtain a First, do you consider that a lot?

That's for First. What about 2i?

If you're limited to programmes in English, the only other place I can think of, other than those mentioned, is Amsterdam...they have an amazing string theory centre, if that's your bag. http://www.science.uva.nl/research/itf/strings/phdpage.html
All in english, and they have a masters programme here too (with limited financial aid). This place is one of the best in Europe for string theory, so I am told, and would def be a great experience. Awesome thing about Holland too, is that they treat their PhD's as employee's and actually pay a pretty decent salary.

Nah, I'm going for experimentalism. But having a decent salary sounds nice. :)

 

[Fearless]

Warphalange: I would say like this; It depends very much on your experimental field; for condensed matter physics and quantum chemistry I would choose Uppsala university, Chalmers/KTH or Lunds university.

You actually get paid a lot for doing doctoral work in sweden. You get something in the line of $40k a year (and that's calculated low, at chalmers with the right expertise you can get something like $50k a year). IN USA you pay to educate yourself, in soviet russia education pays YOU!

I think it's that way all across europe. But I bet there are exceptions.

If you could pinpoint a speciality I could give better help.

 

[h0dgey84bc]

The 73% quoted refers to the total number of people obtaining any kind of Second class degree...this is the whole spectrum of second class degrees; from Upper second-class (2:1) to lower second class (2:2).

To be accepted into a PhD programme you would need minimum a 2:1, of which a much smaller number than 73% obtain (not sure the exact figure). To have a realistic chance of going to a prestigous school, you will need a First( unless there are mitigating circumstances, or you have compensated by some astounding research, etc).

On the GPA->UK conversion front, I have been looking for this myself, as I really need to know also, and it seems there is no unique way to do this,as the systems are so different. Some people use WES (http://www.wes.org/students/index.asp), and pay them to do a conversion. Other institutes, say don't even bother trying to convert, just state your qualificatons in your own countries system. So it's probably best just emailing the department your thinking about applying to first, to see what they prefer. However, seems typically a First equates to something like 3.7 upwards.

 

[WarPhalange]

Warphalange: I would say like this; It depends very much on your experimental field; for condensed matter physics and quantum chemistry I would choose Uppsala university, Chalmers/KTH or Lunds university.

See I don't know yet. I'm still looking around. The two things I'm looking out for are nanotech (nanoelectronics would be best) and quantum computing. But I'm open to a lot of different fields, so I want to get into a school with a large department and many groups.

You actually get paid a lot for doing doctoral work in sweden. You get something in the line of $40k a year (and that's calculated low, at chalmers with the right expertise you can get something like $50k a year). IN USA you pay to educate yourself, in soviet russia education pays YOU!

The USA system works like this: They pay your tuition and give you a small monthly stipend (enough to live off of) for doing either research help or TA-ing a class. So I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

If the $40k/year before you pay for tuition or after?

 

[yoran]

For nanotechnology, you should check out Delft Institute of Technology (in Holland). It's a leader in that field.

 

[Fearless]

Warphalange: Yes, Delft is an european leader in nanotechnology, all kinds is what I've heard, both the Q-comp and the general part. And besides it's one of the best tech-schools in europe.

You get $40k right of the bat. No tuition in soviet-union of sweden republic.

for nanoelectronics I would pick either Chalmers or KTH first, then after that I would pick Lunds university. They are the leaders of that in sweden.

I would like to hear more about Delft, what is the requirment to study in the netherlands, what does it pay?

 

[oedipa maas]

Do you have Greek citizenship? If you do that will make doing a master's in the EU much more feasible because you will only have to pay EU tuition.

You need a master's degree before you can start a PhD in the Netherlands. All Dutch universities offer their physics MSc and PhD programs in English. Stipends are 2000 to 2500 euro/month (but expect to pay about 40% of this to pensions, taxes and healthcare).

http://www.tnw.tudelft.nl/
http://www1.phys.uu.nl/home_eng.htm
http://www.physics.leidenuniv.nl/
http://www.science.uva.nl/research/wzi/index.php

 

[WarPhalange]

I wouldn't mind paying 40% if I get healthcare for it. As it stands, I wouldn't have had healthcare anyway and that's more important to me than buying toys.

But would I get paid at all when going for my Master's? Or would I need a job too? That would be pretty hard...

 

[WarPhalange]

Also, would this work? Going for Ph.D. in the US and transferring after I get a Master's? Or is that too much of a hassle?

 

[Fearless]

That should work. Transfer when you got your credentials in order. In sweden you need a msc too.

 

[WarPhalange]

How do you usually get a Master's? Just loans + scholarships + a job, or do they pay you like for a Ph.D.?

 

[oedipa maas]

If you do an MSc in the Netherlands you need to pay your tuition yourself.

If you're concerned about the cost but would still like to go abroad you might look at Canada - MScs there are paid positions.

 

[cristo]

Stipends are 2000 to 2500 euro/month (but expect to pay about 40% of this to pensions, taxes and healthcare).

40% tax (and other deductions) as a grad student? Here we don't have to pay any taxes...

 

[Fearless]

Warphalange: I think that Msc is a taught course in most of non-anglosaxon Europe. It means studentloans for getting the degree. In sweden and rest of europe soon, you will get a msc in accordance to the bologna-treaty in five years from start. Bsc 3 years, 2 years of MSc.

cristo: hehe, in sweden the state only takes ~32% of your salary as a Phd-student. But we also got free healthcare and s*** like that, which I suppose you get in england as well.

 

[cristo]

cristo: hehe, in sweden the state only takes ~32% of your salary as a Phd-student. But we also got free healthcare and s*** like that, which I suppose you get in england as well.

To be honest, it probably works out to be around the same: in Sweden it seems they pay you then take some back, but in the UK they just don't pay as much! And yes, healthcare is free here.


As an aside, try and watch your language: the filter that normally asterisks them out isn't working at the moment.

 

[WarPhalange]

cristo, if I have Greek citizenship, is an Msc more doable in the UK? Meaning, are the rules then more similar to that of a UK citizen?

Man, I don't like the idea of paying for an Msc... The thing is I'm already in my 5th year for my bachelor's. They normally take 4 here, but I went to a junior college first, which didn't cover all the physics I needed, so basically I'm stuck for an extra year. I only really need 1 more quarter to graduate, but that doesn't matter since I still want to apply for US grad schools and they pretty much always start in the fall, so I might as well fill that time with classes.

 

[kmewis]

Sorry to derail this thread a little bit. I'm in pretty much the same situation as WarPhalange, but Canadian. I can get dual citizenship with Europe (yay British parents!) and exploring grad school options for Biophysics in Europe. Does anyone know which schools/where is good for either a MSc or PhD? Sweden interests me in particular too.

Lots of good info in here already, thanks everyone!

 

[oedipa maas]

cristo, if I have Greek citizenship, is an Msc more doable in the UK? Meaning, are the rules then more similar to that of a UK citizen?

You need to be a resident of the UK for three years before you can qualify for the domestic tuition.

kmewis, you will probably come out ahead financially if you stay in Canada for your MSc - the cost of living is much higher in Europe.

 

[f95toli]

40% tax (and other deductions) as a grad student? Here we don't have to pay any taxes...

However, in Sweden most grad students WORK as a PhD. students, i.e. legally it is just another job and you have exactly the same rights/obligations as if you were working at a company which often is a big plus (especially for people with kids).
It IS possible to get a PhD. as a student (i.e. without being employed by a university) but that is pretty rare in science (but quite common in e.g. the arts; but then you need to find money somewhere else, usually via scholarships etc). And it is not 40%, more like 32-33% (depending on where you live).

 

[WarPhalange]

So no paying for tuition at that point then?

 

[Fearless]

So Phd-students get free healthcare, sickleave (don't really know the english equivalent), and a bunch of things phd-student rarely get in other non-soviet-scandinavian countries.

f95toli: I am actually going to apply to Chalmers, Uppsala and Lund when I get my degree. What do you think about those places? (Chalmers I have a good understanding of, since I go there, but what about Uppsala and Lund?)

 

[f95toli]

So no paying for tuition at that point then?

You never have to pay for tuition is Sweden, education at all government funded schools and universities is always free, you only have to pay for books etc (and of course you still need money to pay the rent etc).
As far as I know tuition is still free for foreign students as well, but that might change in the future (which would a shame).


Fearless: I studied at Chalmers and did my PhD there as well (MC2), so I don't really know much about Lund and Uppsala although the group I worked in did collaborate a fair bit with people from the latter (Angstrom).

Lund is a bit of a strange place, they e.g. have a very nice new cleanroom but they don't seem to collaborate much with other Swedish universities; they also seem to be completely focused on semiconductor physics (which is one reason I don't know much about them, I worked on superconducting devices).

 

[Fearless]

After finishing your Phd-thesis at MC2, was it hard getting a relevant job in the sector you wished to work in? Would you recommend others try to get enrolled in their Phd-programme? How hard is it for a CTH-student vs other schools to get into the phd-programme there?

Besides, Do you recommend others to take courses offered by MC2, "Nanoscience and technology"-mastersprogramme? Or is the Applied physics-programme better?

What would you say about Angstrom?

I am thankful for any information