Examples of invariant quantities

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on identifying examples of invariant quantities in the context of special relativity (SR), specifically focusing on the invariants ##\vec E \cdot \vec B## and ##E^{2}-B^{2}##. Participants explore theoretical and practical scenarios to demonstrate these invariants, including electromagnetic fields and transformations between inertial frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that ##\vec E \cdot \vec B## and ##E^{2}-B^{2}## are invariant quantities in SR and seek examples to illustrate this.
  • One suggestion involves considering a static electric field from a point charge and transforming to another frame to verify the invariance of the quantities.
  • Another example proposed is an electromagnetic wave in a vacuum, which is noted to exhibit the properties of these invariants across all inertial frames.
  • It is mentioned that in the case of electromagnetic waves, the electric and magnetic fields are perpendicular, leading to the condition ##\mathbf{B} \cdot \mathbf{E} = 0##.
  • Another participant discusses electrostatic cases where the magnetic field is zero, suggesting that the invariant relationship implies a greater electric field in a transformed frame due to the motion of charges.
  • There is a clarification that moving charges not only create an electric field but also generate a magnetic field in frames other than their rest frame.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants present multiple competing views and examples regarding the invariance of the quantities discussed. There is no consensus on a single example or explanation, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on specific frame transformations and the assumptions made about the configurations of electric and magnetic fields. The discussion does not resolve the mathematical steps involved in demonstrating the invariance.

BookWei
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In SR, we know that ##\vec E \cdot \vec B## and ##E^{2}-B^{2}## are invariant.
Although I can prove those two invariant physical quantities mathematically, I do not know how to find at least
one example to demonstrate that ##\vec E \cdot \vec B## and ##E^{2}-B^{2}## are invariant.
Many thanks!
 
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BookWei said:
I do not know how to find at least
one example to demonstrate that ##\vec E \cdot \vec B## and ##E^{2}-B^{2}## are invariant.

Here are two that you can try:

(1) In one particular frame, the EM field is a static electric field, say the field due to a point charge at the spatial origin. The values of the two invariants are obvious in this frame. Then transform to another frame and verify that the invariants stay the same.

(2) An electromagnetic wave in vacuum.
 
Say
\mathbf{B}\cdot\mathbf{E}=0,
B and E are perpendicular in all IFRs.

Say
\mathbf{E^2}-\mathbf{B^2}=0,
|B|=|E| in all IFRs.

Electromagnetic wave in vacuum is a good example that has these properties in any IFR.
 
As for electrostatic cases where all charges are still and B=0 everywhere, the invariant says that |E|>|E0| where E0 is original electric field and E is one Lorentz transformed. I assume moving charges make more electric field because multiple signals are sent from the past charge positions, or Lorentz contract of distance enlarge Coulomb force. I will appreciate it if someone could show me a precise explanation.
 
Last edited:
sweet springs said:
I assume moving charges make more electric field

They also make a magnetic field; in any frame other than the rest frame of the charge, B is nonzero.
 
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