Faraday's law of electromagnetism

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Faraday's law of electromagnetism, specifically addressing the conditions under which electromotive force (emf) is induced in a conductor. Participants explore scenarios involving the orientation of a loop in a magnetic field, the implications of tilting the loop, and the relationship between magnetic flux and induced emf.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that when the rotor's velocity is parallel to the magnetic field lines, no emf is induced, as the rate of change of magnetic flux is zero.
  • Another participant suggests that even if a loop does not cut through magnetic field lines, tilting it can still induce a small emf due to the change in flux density just outside the limb of the magnetic circuit.
  • A different participant questions the scenario where all flux is enclosed within the loop, arguing that in practice, this situation is unlikely to occur and emphasizes the need for mathematical modeling to analyze flux changes.
  • One participant proposes a specific mathematical setup involving a uniform magnetic field and a square conducting loop to investigate the conditions under which flux cutting occurs.
  • Another participant reiterates that a small amount of flux will be present outside the limb, leading to the conclusion that tilting the loop will indeed cut some flux lines and induce emf.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether emf can be induced without cutting magnetic field lines, with some arguing that tilting the loop can still result in induced emf, while others emphasize the theoretical nature of such scenarios. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific conditions under which emf is induced.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of mathematical modeling in understanding the behavior of magnetic fields and induced emf, indicating that assumptions about uniformity and field strength may affect the outcomes of their analyses.

Nimbus2000
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I have a confusion regarding Faraday's law of electromagnetism. Consider this diagram
images (1).jpg

At this instant, the velocity of the rotor is parallel to the field lines, hence, no emf is induced in the rotor. Altetnatively, we can say that the rate of change of flux associated with the rotor is 0 at this instant, hence emf induced is 0.
Also, motional emf is given as E=BlvsinΘ and magnetic flux Φ=BAcosΘ. Now, E=BlvsinΘ=Bl(dx/dt)sinΘ=d(B*l*dx*sinΘ)/dt=d(BAcosΘ)/dt=dΦ/dt. This shows that if we use motional emf formula or the dΦ/dt formula, we arrive at the same result. But what if the conductor is not cutting any magnetic field and there is a change in flux with respect to the loop?
images (1).png

Suppose the middle limb is excited using a dc voltage. All the flux will be enclosed in the limb. Now consider the red loop on the middle limb. If the loop is tilted by some angle, flux through the loop will change since Θ changed. But the loop doesn't cut any flux since all the flux is enclosed in the limb. Will there be emf induced in the loop without cutting of flux lines?
Please help.
 
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Nimbus2000 said:
Suppose the middle limb is excited using a dc voltage. All the flux will be enclosed in the limb.
A small amount of flux will be present outside the limb.

Say that the loop is just a little wider than the limb ( so that a tilt is possible ), and that the relative permeabilty, μr = 1000 as for the limb, the flux density just outside the limb will become 0.001*( density inside the limb ). So tilting the loop will cut a small amount of flux, and will induce a small amount of emf.

So just to be very accurate: An emf will be induced due to some flux lines being cut.

( Emf = dψ / dt , ψ = flux )
 
But what if the conductor is not cutting any magnetic field and there is a change in flux with respect to the loop?
... ie if all the flux is enclosed within the loop ...

In practice this won't happen.
Mathematically we can set up anything - so set up the math and crunch the numbers.

Define a uniform magnetic field in rectangular coords: ##\vec B = B\hat k : -a/2 < x,y < a/2 ## but 0 everywhere else, and there is a square conducting loop with sides length b > a in the x-y plane, centered on the origin. You want to rotate the loop through angle ##\theta## about the y axis, being careful to keep in bounds: ##0 < \theta < \cos^{-1}(a/b)## (check?) so that the wire never cuts the magnetic field.

You want to know if there is a change in flux due to the component of ##\vec B## perpendicular to the area of the loop changing.
Is this what you are thinking of?

The equation you want is:
$$\Phi = \iint_S \vec B\cdot \text{d}\vec S$$

It needn't be that complicated: a simple situation is to change the magnetic field strength so ##\vec B = B(t)\hat k## and leave the loop in the x-y plane. Now what happens? Is flux cutting happening?
 
Simon Bridge said:
... ie if all the flux is enclosed within the loop ...

In practice this won't happen.
Mathematically we can set up anything - so set up the math and crunch the numbers.

Define a uniform magnetic field in rectangular coords: ##\vec B = B\hat k : -a/2 < x,y < a/2 ## but 0 everywhere else, and there is a square conducting loop with sides length b > a in the x-y plane, centered on the origin. You want to rotate the loop through angle ##\theta## about the y axis, being careful to keep in bounds: ##0 < \theta < \cos^{-1}(a/b)## (check?) so that the wire never cuts the magnetic field.

You want to know if there is a change in flux due to the component of ##\vec B## perpendicular to the area of the loop changing.
Is this what you are thinking of?

The equation you want is:
$$\Phi = \iint_S \vec B\cdot \text{d}\vec S$$

It needn't be that complicated: a simple situation is to change the magnetic field strength so ##\vec B = B(t)\hat k## and leave the loop in the x-y plane. Now what happens? Is flux cutting happening?
Hesch said:
A small amount of flux will be present outside the limb.

Say that the loop is just a little wider than the limb ( so that a tilt is possible ), and that the relative permeabilty, μr = 1000 as for the limb, the flux density just outside the limb will become 0.001*( density inside the limb ). So tilting the loop will cut a small amount of flux, and will induce a small amount of emf.

So just to be very accurate: An emf will be induced due to some flux lines being cut.

( Emf = dψ / dt , ψ = flux )
Thank you @Hesch, @Simon Bridge for your replies. Actually, Nimbus2000 is my friend (and room-mate) and I was facing some technical problems while posting my own thread
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/faradays-law-confusion.882312/.
So, he posted this thread and a few minutes later I posted my own. Later, I posted another thread in which I've asked the actual question in my mind. Please have a look and see if you can help.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/faradays-law-and-motional-emf-paradox.882572/.
 

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