News Fidel Castro Resigns: Tuesday Marks Historic Moment

[Ivan Seeking]

Fidel Castro resigned Tuesday...

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hgDKj0AzfQ9SWdrvaiWh-7P7JMdg

 

[Astronuc]

Time for a change.

 

[russ_watters]

Hopefully there will be some.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

So Castro's brother will rule for another 50 years? What will change?

 

[Yonoz]

How much of the US' Cuba policy has to do with Fidel Castro himself? I would imagine the missile crisis is a major component.

 

[mgb_phys]

So Castro's brother will rule for another 50 years? What will change?

Does he have a dumber son with the same first name?

Our warmest felicitations to our American cousins who will no longer have to live under the constant fear of Cuban aggression.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Maybe now we'll be permitted to eat those Cuban Sandwiches they serve down in the cafeteria.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Too bad this couldn't have waited until after the end of the Bush presidency, particularly given the Aristide kidnapping and all. Hopefully he's shamed too much by Iraq at this point for any more cowboy glory-seeking.

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[mgb_phys]

eat those Cuban Sandwiches

Can you call them freedom sandwiches ?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Can you call them freedom sandwiches ?

Not until there is a McDonalds and a Burger King and a Pizza Hut on every corner in Cuba and a Wal-mart in every town. Only then will they truly be free.

P.S. Guantanamo is the only place in Cuba where there's a McDonalds right now. Let's see how long it takes that to change.

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[mheslep]

Does he have a dumber son with the same first name?

How amusing! Here's some more: perhaps Castro could anoint an inbred Royal Family with a http://www.salon.com/sept97/news/news970902.html" heir to the thrown.

Our warmest felicitations to our American cousins who will no longer have to live under the constant fear of Cuban aggression.

Yes it was all CIA propaganda. Cuban troops or advisers in: Angola (50,000 troops), Ethiopia (24,000), Yemen, Grenada. Congo, Nicaragua

 

[mgb_phys]

an inbred Royal Family with a rather dim and unpopular heir to the thrown.

We are very impressed, it's taken the royal houses of Europe centuries to achieve this level of imbicility - what's the secret to doing it so quickly?

Yes it was all CIA propaganda. Cuban troops or advisers in: Angola (50,000 troops), Ethiopia (24,000), Yemen, Grenada. Congo, Nicaragua

So with them all safely in Africa they aren't likely to invade Florida!

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Yes it was all CIA propaganda. Cuban troops or advisers in: … Nicaragua

Sending troops to Nicaragua! Gasp! Clearly Cuba is the arch-enemy of freedom and democracy. Why, the only more fiendish thing they could do would be if they sold armaments to a fundamentalist Islamic regime and then gave that money to a murderous revolutionary faction in Nicaragua.

You're not seriously going to criticize Cuba for taking sides in conflicts elsewhere in the world, are you? When the U.S. is going to be heading into its 5th year occupying Iraq shortly?

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[mheslep]

You're not seriously going to criticize Cuba for taking sides in conflicts elsewhere in the world, are you? When the U.S. is going to be heading into its 5th year occupying Iraq shortly?

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See the context. It was in response to a pretense that Cuba was never a military threat to anyone. The big bad US and little old helpless Cuba theme.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

See the context. It was in response to a pretense that Cuba was never a military threat to anyone. The big bad US and little old helpless Cuba theme.

Ah, I see. You were just responding to some America-bashing with some Brit-bashing. Well I'm all for bashing the Brits! They've got big ears and silly swear-words.

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[Jimmy Snyder]

Not until there is a McDonalds and a Burger King and a Pizza Hut on every corner in Cuba and a Wal-mart in every town. Only then will they truly be free.

Freedom isn't when they build a McDonalds, or a Burger King. Its when they build both of them and one goes out of business.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Freedom isn't when they build a McDonalds, or a Burger King. Its when they build both of them and one goes out of business.

I'm probably getting played, but you aren't serious, are you? My point was that they already have freedom in Cuba, it just isn't our kind of freedom.

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[mgb_phys]

silly swear-words.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm My point was that they already have freedom in Cuba, it just isn't our kind of freedom.

They have freedom in jail too. It just isn't my kind of freedom.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

They have freedom in jail too. It just isn't my kind of freedom.

Yeah, the Cuban idea of freedom being compatible with Castro ruling for life doesn't fit. But dude, you just said that McDonalds and Burger King competing is true freedom. Does it really fit better that our idea of freedom involves the franchises of multinational corporations being able to duke it out, or Monsanto successfully suing farmers out of existence because some GMO pollen blew into their field, or smoking in all restaurants being outlawed in some states, or the Bay of Pigs invasion, or invading and occupying Iraq for the past 5 years and who knows how many more, or the government seizing land rights from private owners to protect the environment?

I don't think we're the ones to be schooling Cuba on what freedom is.

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[mheslep]

Ah, I see. You were just responding to some America-bashing with some Brit-bashing. Well I'm all for bashing the Brits! They've got big ears and silly swear-words.⚛

Yes, wasn't claiming any American exceptionalism. Hey Captain, what's with the

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?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Does it really fit better that our idea of freedom involves the franchises of multinational corporations being able to duke it out,

Yes, any business large or small. Let the customers decide who will prosper. When the government decides who is allowed to do business, you end up with Cuban freedom.

or Monsanto successfully suing farmers out of existence because some GMO pollen blew into their field,

Everyone large or small must have access to the legal system or you end up with Cuban freedom.

or smoking in all restaurants being outlawed in some states,

Smoking in the ICU is outlawed as well. Under the current system, you can smoke and I can refrain. What's wrong with that? You can even smoke Cubans, you just have to step outside that's all.

or the Bay of Pigs invasion, or invading and occupying Iraq for the past 5 years and who knows how many more,

The regime behind Bay of Pigs is no longer in power and the regime behind the Iraq occupation is going away soon. The alternative is Cuban freedom.

or the government seizing land rights from private owners to protect the environment?

You are right, this is not freedom. Neither is it a reason to head south. Under Cuban freedom they take your land too.

I don't think we're the ones to be schooling Cuba on what freedom is.

Yes, we should. We should build all kinds of businesses and watch 80% of them fail. We should preserve our precious freedoms and those of our neighbors. We should do things that other people don't want us to do. The Cubans, and the world can see what a noisy thing freedom is, and may their tongues hang out.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Yes, wasn't claiming any American exceptionalism. Hey Captain, what's with the

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?

That's the Unicode atomic symbol, which looks like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_model" . If it looks like a question mark to you that means that your computer doesn't fully support Unicode, or at least that all of the fonts you have are missing that character.

http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page" that contains symbols like that and also most of the scientific and mathematical character sets. I think it would work with Windows, Mac, or Linux, as long as your system supports Unicode in general.

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[mgb_phys]

I wondered about that - it displays as a thick forward slash on opera+windows XP.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

What is the numerical equivalent of the character?

 

[mheslep]

That's the Unicode atomic symbol, which looks like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_model" . If it looks like a question mark to you that means that your computer doesn't fully support Unicode, or at least that all of the fonts you have are missing that character.

Yes I have uni support and see Sir R.'s model. I just didn't get the meaning of your salutation.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

When I get vacation time, I like to go to the island of Aruba for R & R. The buzz down there is that when the US decides that us can visit Cuba, there will be resorts built right away. Apparently the Dutch have a lot of plans in this regard. The Cubans themselves would probably allow these resorts right now, but the Dutch won't build until us is allowed to go there. I don't see much hope in a leader that only received one vote, but it may be that he is willing to do what it takes to get the US to ease up.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Yes, any business large or small. Let the customers decide who will prosper. When the government decides who is allowed to do business, you end up with Cuban freedom.

You think the government in the U.S. doesn't decide who does business? I've got two words for you: farm subsidies.

And have you run into any Cuban cigar importers lately?

Everyone large or small must have access to the legal system or you end up with Cuban freedom.

You're saying that some Cubans don't have access to the Cuban legal system? Can you cite anything that shows what you're talking about, or just be more specific even?

And does this mean that you think Monsanto ruining those farmers represents freedom?

Smoking in the ICU is outlawed as well. Under the current system, you can smoke and I can refrain. What's wrong with that? You can even smoke Cubans, you just have to step outside that's all.

Uh, in the ICU? Like, in hospitals? What does that have to do with freedom?

The regime behind Bay of Pigs is no longer in power and the regime behind the Iraq occupation is going away soon. The alternative is Cuban freedom.

You're saying that unless we do things like preemptively invade Iraq the world will become communist? Are you serious?

You sure swallowed the Cold War rhetoric hook, line, and sinker. You realize that the CIA spin doctors who made that stuff up have probably been dead for decades, right?

You are right, this is not freedom. Neither is it a reason to head south. Under Cuban freedom they take your land too.

Most of the people who live in Cuba today have probably never owned land. And many of them are probably now living and farming land that was originally part of a plantation owned by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company" or some other American company.

Yes, we should. We should build all kinds of businesses and watch 80% of them fail. We should preserve our precious freedoms and those of our neighbors. We should do things that other people don't want us to do. The Cubans, and the world can see what a noisy thing freedom is, and may their tongues hang out.

May their tongues hang out… and may they get the chance to emigrate to a capitalist wonderland like Haiti? Because if the entente between the U.S. and Cuba were to end by Cuba disavowing communism, we would of course slam the immigration door in their faces faster than we'd start importing their cigars and sugar.

Give it up, man - the U.S. kidnaps or overthrows elected leaders whenever we feel like it¹, we gladly sell weapons and give money to Saddam Hussein and people like him, we fight on the side of multinational corporations who squeeze blood from the peasants in third-world countries better than any European prince ever did, we bloody up places like Vietnam or Afghanistan if we need that kind of tool in a political war. Did you know that we trained the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to make car bombs?² Seriously? And we torture people in secret prisons.

We are not some kind of experts on freedom. We are willfully and intentionally the enemies of freedom whenever it suits our purposes.

The Cold War ended almost twenty years ago. There's no need whatsoever to pretend that Cuba is the minion of an Evil Empire that is the enemy of everything good and pure.

¹Like Aristide in Haiti in 2004 or the attempt against Chavez in Venezuela in 2001 - ever wonder why he hates us so much? Or Mohammad Mosaddeq, the elected prime minister of Iran, who we overthrew in 1953 with the help of the Brits and replaced with the Shah. We basically handed Iran over to the fundamentalist Islamists.
²That would be while the Soviets were there, not during the recent war.

P.S. The Atom symbol is hex 269B I think. If anyone has Windows Vista I'd be curious to know if it shows up properly, Vista is supposed to have better Unicode support.

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[CaptainQuasar]

Yes I have uni support and see Sir R.'s model. I just didn't get the meaning of your salutation.

Oh, I see. No particular meaning, it just seemed like a cooler reference than some quote or crazily colored text or something.

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[mheslep]

the attempt against Chavez in Venezuela in 2001 - ever wonder why he hates us so much?

Bogus. You didn't read that in any respectable news source because it never happened.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Bogus. You didn't read that in any respectable news source because it never happened.

Because respectable news sources would definitely report something like that.

I would agree that there isn't ironclad evidence - but that's not the same as “bogus”. There's an entire documentary, made by a team that was in Venezuela when the coup happened, about how cozy the coup leaders and American interests were.

Would you at least concede that the U.S. government did not exactly denounce the coup? And it's not exactly like we don't do things like that. You aren't disputing Mossadegh or any of the other stuff I said, I notice.

Have you seen the photographs of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein in the 1980's? Most people in leadership positions in the U.S. do not give a rat's behind about democracy and freedom. I am not kidding and these things cannot be dismissed as fantasies of conspiracy theorists. It's completely ridiculous for the U.S. to pretend to be critical of Cuba for not pursuing or defending freedom.

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[mheslep]

Because respectable news sources would definitely report something like that.

Eh? NY Times etc would not absolutely run over your grandmother to get a story on how the US was staging a coup somewhere? Every opposition Senator would not run over your dog to get the same?

I would agree that there isn't ironclad evidence - but that's not the same as “bogus”. There's an entire documentary, made by a team that was in Venezuela when the coup happened, about how cozy the coup leaders and American interests were.

There's an entire documentary on how Bush blew up the WTC.

Would you at least concede that the U.S. government did not exactly denounce the coup?

Its evident that the US publicly opposed Chavez, diplomatically. With regards to force, I know first hand that the US DoD sent people down there that told the V. military the US wanted no coup. Further, US got word to Chavez directly warning him of a possible coup, though he'd have to be an idiot to not see it coming w/ the mass protests in the streets. As for sympathy for Chavez, I have none. I hope the US foreign policy was and is to do everything diplomatically possible to peacefully oppose that wannabe tyrant (https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11840&d=1196721676") and every other tyrant be it in Burma, Cuba, or anywhere else.

And it's not exactly like we don't do things like that. You aren't disputing Mossadegh or any of the other stuff I said, I notice.

Like you say, that was the cold war, give it a rest. The cold war, in order to keep from becoming a hot war, involved using proxies, sometimes foolishly. If there's some other innocent grand plan hidden away to contain the Soviet Union I'm unaware of it. BTW, proxies, some of them equally loathsome, are still touted by some (Paul) as the way Saddam Hussein should have been contained. I fail to see how it would have been so pure and good to contain Saddam and at the same time so evil to use proxies back in the cold war. And no, since the cold war AFAIK we don't do things 'like that'.

Have you seen the photographs of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein in the 1980's? Most people in leadership positions in the U.S. do not give a rat's behind about democracy and freedom. I am not kidding and these things cannot be dismissed as fantasies of conspiracy theorists.

I hope we can get away from assertion based posts and back to the excellent, well referenced ones I've seen in the past.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Like you say, that was the cold war, give it a rest.

Ah, the old “you've got to break eggs to make an omelette” justification. Tell me, how far does that go? At what point is it not okay to depose elected governments, support people like Saddam Hussein, be an arms merchant around the world, train religious radicals in terrorist tactics and arm them, torture people in secret prisons, etc.? And was it okay when the Soviets did it or was it bad when they did it but okay when we do it 'cause we're the good guys?

And would you accept “give it a rest” when someone uses the War on Terror to justify things like that?

In any case - I'm not out to prove that the U.S. is itself an Evil Empire, I don't really think that. But we have enough blood on our hands from very ignoble pursuits that for us to say that the Cubans are insufferable bad guys - that we have really super-duper important reasons for doing this kind of stuff and they don't - is more than just the pot calling the kettle black, it's ridiculous.

'I am not kidding'? I hope we can get away from assertion based posts and back to the excellent, well referenced ones we've had in the past.

BTW, you say this after presenting first-hand anecdotal evidence about the Chavez thing?

You requested references for the Chavez thing and I responded: it's not ironclad, I don't have any, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I will take your anecdote into account in thinking about that in the future.

But that's one of many different historical occurances I have cited to demonstrate that freedom and democracy very frequently rate pretty darn low on our list. The other ones I thought were reasonably established fact, but feel free to ask for references on anything you want.

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[CaptainQuasar]

Eh? NY Times etc would not absolutely run over your grandmother to get a story on how the US was staging a coup somewhere? Every opposition Senator would not run over your dog to get the same?

On this point I'm thinking back to during the Iraq invasion when I compared coverage of it between U.S. television, French Canadian television, and the BBC (while in Britain). On the BBC and on the Canadian channels you saw a heck of a lot more wounded Iraqi children and Iraqis running around in the streets and screaming with blood all over them. I saw almost none of that, by comparison, on the U.S. networks - there was lots more footage of press conferences and artillery targeting and firing and steel-jawed Marines gazing out over the desert or being attacked.

The point being, the press here is not always tripping over themselves to make the administration look bad.

Have you ever seen Democracy Now!, that absurdly left-wing, internet-only nightly news broadcast? It's way too boring to watch regularly but they often run fairly significant stories that don't really appear in the mainstream press.

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[mheslep]

BTW, you say this after presenting first-hand anecdotal evidence about the Chavez thing?

You requested references for the Chavez thing and I responded: it's not ironclad, I don't have any, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I will take your anecdote into account in thinking about that in the future.

I apologize if I sounded condescending. Hey if you, or anyone else on PF that's been here awhile has 1st hand non public info that furthers any discussion I'm interested to see it, esp. if its about specific US officials opposing democratic initiatives. I'm not interested in broad sweeping, stated as irrefutable assertions about all US leadership.

But that's one of many different historical occurances I have cited to demonstrate that freedom and democracy very frequently rate pretty darn low on our list. The other ones I thought were reasonably established fact, but feel free to ask for references on anything you want.

Yes agreed those events in the 50's etc are historical. I don't see that it follows necessarily that freedom and democracy are well down on our list because: 1) As I said those events were rightly and wrongly done as part of the cold war. Again, I ask given the Soviet Union what should have been done instead? Nothing? Have 'regime change' in a nuclear Moscow? 2) The whole neocon argument is to spread freedom and democracy, even at the cost of violently intervening, the idea being that puppet tyrants don't work, never did, they inevitably breed instability and the only true stability in the world comes via democracy. I think this policy was taken up recklessly and with some hubris, but one certainly can't say that freedom and democracy was low on the list of neocon policy.

 

[mheslep]

On this point I'm thinking back to during the Iraq invasion when I compared coverage of it between U.S. television, French Canadian television, and the BBC (while in Britain). On the BBC and on the Canadian channels you saw a heck of a lot more wounded Iraqi children and Iraqis running around in the streets and screaming with blood all over them. I saw almost none of that, by comparison, on the U.S. networks - there was lots more footage of press conferences and artillery targeting and firing and steel-jawed Marines gazing out over the desert or being attacked.

The point being, the press here is not always tripping over themselves to make the administration look bad.

See where your'e going but no, don't agree even with that. I speculate that the press is not always out to make US soldiers look bad, and seems to be confused as to when to lay into them or off. I think they're very clear on the administration. Yep, good gotcha story on the administration and grandma gets run over by the news van.

Have you ever seen Democracy Now!, that absurdly left-wing, internet-only nightly news broadcast? It's way too boring to watch regularly but they often run fairly significant stories that don't really appear in the mainstream press.

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Yep. Occasionally listen. Don't care for the local carrier here, never will: few days after 9/11 driving pre-dawn the station DJ went off on a rant about 'how did these moslem guys get flight training? why can't blacks get flight training in AmeriKa...' while the building's were still smoking.

 

[russ_watters]

Well I'm all for bashing the Brits! They've got big ears and silly swear-words.

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I'm so stealing that one.

 

[russ_watters]

Freedom isn't when they build a McDonalds, or a Burger King. Its when they build both of them and one goes out of business.

That one too.

 

[fourier jr]

Bogus. You didn't read that in any respectable news source because it never happened.

Well, nobody could have read it in an American news source. The BBC & the Guardian/Observer covered it though.


re: Cuba, Cuba will never be able to have free & fair elections as long as the CIA & their mafia collaborators operate in Havana.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm probably getting played, but you aren't serious, are you? My point was that they already have freedom in Cuba, it just isn't our kind of freedom.

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There's been so much sarcasm in this thread so far, I'm not certain I'm reading you right. Are you saying in Cuba Cuba there's freedom? Not just in 'Gitmo?

There is no freedom in Cuba by any meaningful definition. Their "election
results of the last 50 years paint the clearest picture of that.

 

[russ_watters]

We are not some kind of experts on freedom.

See the Kosovo thread: They were waving American flags at their demonstrations.

See: Eastern Europe. And I don't mean the Cold War, I mean the aftermath. Countries like Lithuania asked for our help setting up their democracies. [I went there once with the Navy 10 years or so after they democracized. They treated us like rock stars just because we were Americans.]

Yah, we are the experts on freedom and democracy and democracy-seekers worldwide know it.

We are willfully and intentionally the enemies of freedom whenever it suits our purposes.

The fact that the US also acts, externally, out of selfishness is utterly irrelevant here. All countries do. That has nothing to do with how our system of government/economy works. It has nothing to do with this thread: This thread is about Cuba and it's need for freedom. Whether you like the US or not, Cubans should be free.

The Cold War ended almost twenty years ago. There's no need whatsoever to pretend that Cuba is the minion of an Evil Empire that is the enemy of everything good and pure.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that. No one is saying Cuba should change because they are a threat (who'se still thinking about the Cold War, us or you?). What we are saying is simply that the Cuban people (all people, but these are only 90 miles from us so it irks us especially) should be free.

Because respectable news sources would definitely report something like that.

I'm not sure you see the irony in that. Yah, respectable news sources would not report something so bogus. That's where the word "respectable" comes in.

 

[russ_watters]

More on Lithuania:

Good speech by the President of Lithuania on the subject of transition to Democracy. http://adamkus.president.lt/en/one.phtml?id=2459
Article about Lithuania/US relations: http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/getdocument.aspx?logid=5&id=50016BD8-DC15-414F-9EF0-98F640E7C0B0

I suspect the fact that the US never recognized Lithuania as a part of the USSR and continued to fly a Lithuanian flag in US State Department is part of why they regard us so highly. It's also why I expect similar treatment from the Cubans when they finally become free.

 

[fourier jr]

See the Kosovo thread: They were waving American flags at their demonstrations.

See: Eastern Europe. And I don't mean the Cold War, I mean the aftermath. Countries like Lithuania asked for our help setting up their democracies. [I went there once with the Navy 10 years or so after they democracized. They treated us like rock stars just because we were Americans.]

Yah, we are the experts on freedom and democracy and democracy-seekers worldwide know it.

"You were our heroes after the War. We read American books and saw American films, and a common phrase in those days was 'to be as rich and as wise as an American'. What happened?" -- Vietcong officer to his American prisoner

I'm a democracy seeker & I agree with Raul Castro here: "We could say in Cuba we have two parties: one led by Fidel and one led by Raul, what would be the difference? That's the same thing that happens in the United States ... both are the same. Fidel is a little taller than me, he has a beard and I don't."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-12-24-cuba-castro_N.htm

 

[russ_watters]

"You were our heroes after the War. We read American books and saw American films, and a common phrase in those days was 'to be as rich and as wise as an American'. What happened?" -- Vietcong officer to his American prisoner

There's plenty wrong with that quote, but again, it's irrelevant. It has nothing to do with whether Cubans should be free.

I'm a democracy seeker & I agree with Raul Castro here: "We could say in Cuba we have two parties: one led by Fidel and one led by Raul, what would be the difference? That's the same thing that happens in the United States ... both are the same. Fidel is a little taller than me, he has a beard and I don't."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-12-24-cuba-castro_N.htm

You're right. Overall, the difference between Raul and Fidel is probably similar to the difference between McCain and Obama. But that also doesn't have anything to do with whether Cubans should be free. What matters is the difference between McCain and Raul. I can't believe you would miss how huge that is. Then again, did Raul miss it too or is he just being coy? Sometimes it is hard to tell if they are deluded by their own system or if they know they are criminal despots and act coy on purpose.

 

[mheslep]

Ah, the old “you've got to break eggs to make an omelette” justification. Tell me, how far does that go? At what point is it not okay to depose elected governments, support people like Saddam Hussein, be an arms merchant around the world,

This all has some ivory tower feel to it, as if the cold war was some fantasy. The US was country coming out a world war that killed some 60m people, then engaged in nuclear chess with an empire that said blatantly 'we will bury you'. Mix in some paranoia and some parochialism and some foolish decisions were made. When have they not given those stakes. You tell me what should have been done.

train religious radicals in terrorist tactics and arm them,

I think you are confusing the Mujahadeen (local Afghans, yes funded by US), with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Arabs" - the Wohabist radicals. The latter was the Bin Laden crowd.

torture people in secret prisons, etc.?

AFAIC find: a) US military (DoD) does not torture, b)CIA water boarded three people (one of them KSM) and now college kids water board each other for kicks. Still water boarding is torture because McCain said so and that's good enough for me. I happy to see these incidents investigated and debated, but they do not define a country IMO, rather the debate does.

And was it okay when the Soviets did it or was it bad when they did it but okay when we do it 'cause we're the good guys?

Yes compared to the Soviets the West was the good guys. Just ask an E. German defector or try http://movies.nytimes.com/2007/02/0...m&ex=1171170000&en=7c16e59fe81b2a1d&ei=5087 "

In any case - I'm not out to prove that the U.S. is itself an Evil Empire, I don't really think that. But we have enough blood on our hands from very ignoble pursuits that for us to say that the Cubans are insufferable bad guys - that we have really super-duper important reasons for doing this kind of stuff and they don't - is more than just the pot calling the kettle black, it's ridiculous.

Disagree for all the reasons above. The Cubans imprison their own people for speaking out against El Jefe, and they'll take all that you have or can be.

 

[fourier jr]

There's plenty wrong with that quote, but again, it's irrelevant. It has nothing to do with whether Cubans should be free. You're right. Overall, the difference between Raul and Fidel is probably simila to the difference between McCain and Obama. But that also doesn't have anything to do with anything. What matters is the difference between McCain and Raul. I can't believe you would miss how huge that is. Then again, did Raul miss it too or is he just being coy? Sometimes it is hard to tell if they are deluded by their own system or if they know they are criminal despots and act coy on purpose.

Are Americans missing it? At least Raul just says it & all Cubans accept it, but Americans don't seem to see one party masquerading as two parties. Maybe it's the Americans who are delusional.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

1) As I said those events were rightly and wrongly done as part of the cold war. Again, I ask given the Soviet Union what should have been done instead? Nothing? Have 'regime change' in a nuclear Moscow?

At the moment I'm not particularly trying to say that anything should have been done differently. Again, I'm just saying that given that list of things we've done, I have difficulty believing that the list of things Cuba has done is so dramatically worse as to justify the upturned nose and air of superiority.

But I definitely haven't drilled deeply into the misdeeds of Cuba. If there are comparable or worse things they've done, don't assume I know of them, please serve them up even if they're the kind of thing you would regard as basic history.

2) The whole neocon argument is to spread freedom and democracy, even at the cost of violently intervening, the idea being that puppet tyrants don't work, never did, they inevitably breed instability and the only true stability in the world comes via democracy. I think this policy was taken up recklessly and with some hubris, but one certainly can't say that freedom and democracy was low on the list of neocon policy.

I'm actually pretty skeptical of this. But I'll again admit that I haven't really investigated neocon political philosophy. What kinds of non-military actions have the neocons taken to promote freedom and democracy, if they do indeed value it highly?

Another thing that I would find convincing is what you say about puppet tyrants. I'm kind of wondering what was going on with Musharraf, though I guess he doesn't directly qualify as a puppet. But if what you say is true and the neocons have taken steps to ensure that under their influence the U.S. has been refusing to deal with or accomplish foreign policy objectives through dictators, evidence of that would definitely sway me that we've had a national change of heart.

(You've made lots of other posts but I want to hit up one of russ's since he has joined in, I don't think I'll get to your others tonight.)

 

[dr_d_is_cool]

who cares about Cuba seriously, they are no threat no any nations, they are far to small and far to idealistic to do any damage to anyone. Cubas only good for two things, cigars and cocaine

 

[CaptainQuasar]

See the Kosovo thread: They were waving American flags at their demonstrations.See: Eastern Europe. And I don't mean the Cold War, I mean the aftermath. Countries like Lithuania asked for our help setting up their democracies. [I went there once with the Navy 10 years or so after they democracized. They treated us like rock stars just because we were Americans.]

Definitely a point. Kosovars and Lithuanians like us. And I'm sure we have helped them.

Yah, we are the experts on freedom and democracy and democracy-seekers worldwide know it. The fact that the US also acts, externally, out of selfishness is utterly irrelevant here. All countries do. That has nothing to do with how our system of government/economy works. It has nothing to do with this thread: This thread is about Cuba and it's need for freedom.

This thread was started because Ivan posted the news article that Fidel Castro resigned. But if you feel a need to redefine the thread in some way that makes your point for you, and excludes mine, go ahead. I'm going to say whatever I'm going to say.

So when the US does selfish stuff like what I've mentioned it's understandable in one way or another, but when Cuba does selfish things that makes them the bad guys? Cuba has helped other countries too, probably more than some of its capitalist neighbors.

Whether you like the US or not, Cubans should be free.

I do not hate or dislike the US. I think it's the best country in the world. I just don't think there's any reason to view ourselves and our history through hyperbolic-nationalism-tinted glasses or put down other countries to make ourselves feel good.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that. No one is saying Cuba should change because they are a threat (who'se still thinking about the Cold War, us or you?). What we are saying is simply that the Cuban people (all people, but these are only 90 miles from us so it irks us especially) should be free. I'm not sure you see the irony in that. Yah, respectable news sources would not report something so bogus. That's where the word "respectable" comes in.

All right, fair enough, Cubans should be free. What does that mean? What should they be able to do that they cannot do now, and is the ability to do those things something we really work towards around the world? And as I'm sure you picked up above I don't think that “being able to buy the products of U.S. companies” qualifies as freedom. And go ahead and tell me what's so ironic about it, I'm on the edge of my seat.

What do you mean with the news sources and the bogus thing? We were talking about a coup in Venezuela.

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[CaptainQuasar]

Thinking about it more, I realized that this has totally spun out of control as threads are won't to and it's mostly my fault. My real objection was to jimmysnyder's [post=1616169]assertion[/post] that gift of true freedom that the Cubans need is a commercial gift, the gift of McDonalds and Burger King. It was a visceral reaction really, that if there's a last place untouched by billboards and franchises it ought to be preserved. This http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29413" says it better.

Basically, everything I've seen about Cubans from music stuff to doctors and scientists to a couple Cubans I've known has shown me that they're really great people and they've got a rich and vibrant culture on their own. I think they ought to get free elections and more freedom of the press and other things. But I think that they ought to be able to remain communist if they want to, or shift to capitalism if they choose to.

And I think it would totally not be cool if after rapprochement we somehow end up ramming our culture down their throats and they really do end up with McDonalds and Burger Kings all over the place, unless that's really what they want. And I think we should prevent our corporations and multinational corporations from ramming it down their throats too.

At whatever point in the future the Castro regime really ends, if corporations gain a foothold there, it will probably be difficult to discern between what the Cubans really want and what the corporations want. I hope it works out best for the Cubans, whatever happens, and maybe that is for American-style capitalism to take hold there.

I don't think that American culture is a pestilence on the world or anything, I just don't think it's freedom in and of itself. And I think it would be very easy to give Cuba lots of trappings of American culture without really giving them more freedom.

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