First law of a thermodynamic system

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the first law of thermodynamics in a specific scenario involving a thermodynamic system, particularly focusing on energy balance and work done by a gas in a piston setup. Participants explore the calculations related to potential energy, internal energy, and work done by the gas.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a calculation involving potential energy and internal energy, leading to a derived answer that differs from the expected result.
  • Another participant argues that the potential energy of the air does not change and emphasizes that the mg(0.2) term represents work done by the air on its surroundings.
  • A participant suggests breaking the system into two parts to analyze the energy balance of the piston and the gas separately, highlighting the work done by the gas during volume expansion.
  • Repeated emphasis on the importance of considering additional work done by the air in pushing against the surrounding atmosphere.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the calculations and interpretations of the energy balance, with no consensus reached on the correct approach or final answer. Some participants provide clarifications and corrections, but disagreements on the initial calculations remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention omitted variables and work terms that may affect the calculations, indicating potential limitations in the initial approach. The discussion includes references to earlier calculations regarding pressure, which may influence the energy balance but are not fully explored in this thread.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students or individuals studying thermodynamics, particularly those interested in understanding energy balances in thermodynamic systems involving gases and work interactions.

maitake91
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Homework Statement
Heat is transferred through the wall of a vertical cylinder to air trapped inside it by a frictionless piston of mass 10kg and radius 0.05m. When 300J of heat is transferred to the air the piston rises by 0.2m against the atmospheric pressure of 100kPa. Determine the change in internal energy of the trapped air when 300J is transferred and the piston rises 0.2m.
Relevant Equations
(Qin - Qout)+(Win - Wout)+(Emassin - Emassout) = ∆U+∆KE+∆PE
After crossing out all the variables which I think equals 0 in the equation, I was left with:
∆PE + ∆U = Qin
mg (0.2) + ∆U = 300
10*9.81*0.2 - 300 = - ∆U
= -280J

This was the answer I derived. However, the correct answer was supposed to be 123.3J. Please can someone explain to me how to get the correct answer and where I did wrong? This may not be relevant but the pressure of the trapped air was worked out in earlier questions, which equals to 11240Pa.
 

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The potential energy of your "system" (the air) does not change. The mg(0.2) is part of the work that the air does on its surroundings. Also, as Kyouran points out, you omitted the additional work the air does in pushing back the surrounding atmosphere.
 
I deleted my previous post to try and make it more helpful. Sometimes it helps to break up the system into 2 parts. In this case, consider the energy balance of the piston alone and the energy balance of the gas (without the piston alone). Note that the gas does work onto the piston (what is this equal to?) and in addition, the gas also performs work as its volume expands (volume expansion work).
 
Kyouran said:
I deleted my previous post to try and make it more helpful. Sometimes it helps to break up the system into 2 parts. In this case, consider the energy balance of the piston alone and the energy balance of the gas (without the piston alone). Note that the gas does work onto the piston (what is this equal to?) and in addition, the gas also performs work as its volume expands (volume expansion work).

Thank you for your kind explanation, I was able to get it right this time! XD
 
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Chestermiller said:
The potential energy of your "system" (the air) does not change. The mg(0.2) is part of the work that the air does on its surroundings. Also, as Kyouran points out, you omitted the additional work the air does in pushing back the surrounding atmosphere.
Thank you for you help, that cleared a lot things up!
 
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