Flux distribution on AC machines

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the flux distribution in alternating current (AC) machines, specifically focusing on how to achieve a sinusoidal voltage through the variation of magnetic density (B) and magnetic intensity (H). Participants explore the relationship between the number of conductors and their arrangement in relation to the angle, as well as the implications of using sine versus cosine functions in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that to produce a sinusoidal voltage, B must vary sinusoidally, which requires H to also vary sinusoidally, proposing a relationship between the number of conductors and their angular position.
  • Another participant questions the use of cosine in the formula for the number of conductors, suggesting that sine might be more appropriate since it grows with the angle from 0 to 90 degrees.
  • A different perspective argues that the operation of an AC motor does not depend on varying H and B fields by adjusting the number of windings at specific angles, but rather by varying the current through the coils sinusoidally, with a focus on the three-phase system.
  • One participant mentions the concept of distributed windings in larger motors to fine-tune the sine wave shape and avoid higher harmonics, contrasting this with smaller permanent magnet motors that use different methods for shaping the magnetic circuit.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the arrangement of windings and the sinusoidal variation of magnetic fields. There is no consensus on the appropriateness of using sine versus cosine in the context discussed, and the operational principles of AC motors are also contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the need for clarity on definitions and the mechanical versus electrical interpretation of angles in the context of AC machines, indicating potential misunderstandings that could affect their arguments.

Caulfield
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
It is a cylindrical ac machine. If we want to produce a sinusoidal voltage, we need B (magnetic density) to vary sinusoidally.
To get B vary sinusoidally, we need to get H(magnetic intensity) to vary sinusoidally.
To get H vary sinusoidal, the best way is to vary the numbers in the air gap between the rotor and the stator in a sinusoidal way.

Nc is the number of conductors at angle = 0.
nc is the number of conductors in a specific position.

The formula says: nc=Nc*cos(x)

What confuses me here is the cos(x) part. Why not sin(x)?

My logic: sin grows with angle (0 to 90). We want the H to grow in the same way. So why not put more windings at 90, and less windings at 0, and thus get bigger H at 90
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
Caulfield said:
My logic: sin grows with angle (0 to 90). We want the H to grow in the same way. So why not put more windings at 90, and less windings at 0, and thus get bigger H at 90
We don't have your textbook to look at.

So take a step back and ask yourself
"What is difference between sin and cosine ?
Where did author define zero ? "

Answering second question will probably resolve your un-ease.
 
Caulfield said:
So why not put more windings at 90, and less windings at 0, and thus get bigger H at 90

That's not how an ac-motor works. We don't vary the H and B fields by choosing a proper number of windings at 0 degrees or 90 degrees, but by varying the current through the coils sinusoidally. For example we connect three coils in the stator to a three phase net. As the voltages - and therefore the currents - in the three phases are sinusoidal and individually offsetted 120 degrees one another, a magnetic vector will be induced in the motor. The length of this vector is constant, but the vector will rotate around the axis of the motor at 60 rounds per second ( 1 pole pair, USA ). In a synchronous motor, the rotor will follow this vector.

The 0 degrees / 90 degrees are electrical degrees, so where are 90 degrees located mechanically in the machine? Answer: They are rotating.
 
Caulfield might be speaking of rotor...

2p_diag.gif


images courtesy these guys
http://www.generatortech.com/index.html

gen5.gif
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hesch
Yes, could be. I don't know the name in english, but directly translated from danish, it is called an alien-magnitized motor.

I'm also aware of that in bigger motors, distributed windings may be used in the stator, and the intension is here to finetune the shape of the sine-wave (avoid higher harmonics). In smaller PM-motors it is normally done by shaping the teeths/grooves in the stator ( i.e. introduce varying magnetic "resistance" over the width of a tooth in the magnetic circuit ).
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
9K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
8K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
9K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K