History For WW2 buffs!

[DennisN]

I just want to notify readers of this thread of an incredible color (!) video of the WW2 Normandy Invasion (D-day) I posted in this new thread.

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

7 December 1941
Pearl Harbor Attack
https://www.history.navy.mil/browse...perations/world-war-ii/1941/pearl-harbor.html
I wasn't born yet, but my Father and Mother were there when the bombs hit Pearl Harbor. My father was an electrical engineer and my mother was there too. They married later in life and I was born in Oahu. I have the
newspapers from that war!

 

[Dr.D]

It is impossible to make any sense at all of WW II without a hard look at WW i and even the period before that time. It all ties together.

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

Thanks Dr.D

The US. Air Force in World 1
Volume I The Final Report and A Tactical History
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a059513.pdf

December 7, 1941
Japan bombs Pearl Harbor.
December 8, 1941
In his message to Congress, U.S. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt declares Dec. 7 “a date which will live in infamy.”
https://archive.defense.gov/home/features/2013/1213_pearlharbor/

 

[Janosh89]

Is it true that the Japanese Ambassador to Washington was unable to deliver the Declaration of War against
the US in time before Pearl Harbor because of delays in decoding the said text sent from Tokyo ?
My grandfather stayed behind in the Red Cross when Singapore fell . The British sappers could not even
successfully blow up the causeway from mainland Malaya .

 

[DennisN]

I thought it would be a good idea to share a trailer of the upcoming WW1 movie, "1917" here... I am very much looking forward to see it.

 

[BWV]

Looking forward to it as well, hope it doesn’t suck

This was a good relatively recent WW1 film, about the mining of Messine Ridge, the largest man made explosion until Trinity

 

[DennisN]

This was a good relatively recent WW1 film, about the mining of Messine Ridge, the largest man made explosion until Trinity

Thanks, it looks interesting, I will definitely check it out!

 

[BWV]

I suppose that Germany and the USSR were just reestablishing the 1914 Borders which reflected their 18th century partition of Poland

The Soviet Union long denied that the secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact – which was signed on 23 August 1939 – ever existed, only acknowledging and denouncing it in 1989 under Mikhail Gorbachev. Now, Russia has sought to normalise the non-aggression pact, arguing that the treaty had been taken “out of context” of the vicious realpolitik of 1930s Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...justify-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-sparks-outcry

 

[BWV]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...ur-army/0b2cfe73-68f4-4bc3-a62d-7626f6382dbd/‘In May 1945, the Allies attained victory first through the huge efforts of the Russians who had inflicted three-quarters of the German army's casualties; and second through the deployment of overwhelming resources. It may be argued that, after 1945, in seeking to learn the lessons of the World War II, the American Army made the mistake of reversing the order of these factors. American commanders came home from Europe believing they had proved that overwhelming air and firepower could not merely be a critical supplement to, but an effective substitute for, dedicated infantry fighting.

If so, this was an error of judgment that continues to cost America dear today. The shortcomings of American infantry in World War II were repeated in Korea, and in Vietnam. It is a great delusion to suppose that the Indochina war revealed unique, unprecedented problems in the U.S. Army. The American army created in World War II had suffered weaknesses and difficulties. These weaknesses, highlighted by media attention and by defeat, had existed since World War II but had never been discussed before.’

 

[AlexCaledin]

The great thing was , that the biggest part of the Luftwaffe was kept engaged by the RAF in 1941 and 1942.

 

[BWV]

What is shocking is the German response - do they forget who marched through Berlin?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...tain-America-disagree-who-did-more-beat-nazis

 

[AlexCaledin]

the German - do they forget who marched through Berlin?

- they remember too well that those fellows were terribly overfed with that American canned meat!

 

[mathwonk]

@Mary Conrads Sanburn: my wife's parents were also on Oahu during the bombing of pearl harbor, and married a week or so later. Her mom was a nurse and her dad a "beach bum", who joined naval intelligence for the duration. He recalled being sent up into the hills in anticipation of an invasion. My wife's older sister was also born on the island.

 

[Drakkith]

What is shocking is the German response - do they forget who marched through Berlin?

Wow, that graph shows a lot about the western bias that survives to this day. The USSR was responsible for 70-80% of German casualties taken in the war (the eastern front was absolutely brutal) yet even the German poll only gives the USSR 27%. All the lend-lease material in the world pales in comparison to the roughly 27 million Soviet casualties taken during the war (military + civilian).

Twenty. Seven. Million.

Just let that number sink in a little. That's more than three times the current population of New York City, and represents 20% of the 1940 U.S. population. Imagine if 1 out of 5 people in the U.S. were casualties during WW2. Absolutely insane.

 

[BWV]

Yes, the Western allies after 1940 never faced more than a quarter of the German army

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

@Mary Conrads Sanburn: my wife's parents were also on Oahu during the bombing of pearl harbor, and married a week or so later. Her mom was a nurse and her dad a "beach bum", who joined naval intelligence for the duration. He recalled being sent up into the hills in anticipation of an invasion. My wife's older sister was also born on the island.

I lived on Kauai and have a collection of Nihau shells and many other shells from Polihale Beach. Hopefully, this year I will be traveling to Oahu where I was born to put a bouquet of flowers on my father’s gravesite in Diamond Head Memorial Park.

 

[Klystron]

Several posters have commented on the devastating losses suffered by the USSR during (what we call) WWII. Reading English translations of Russian authors writing during and after the Stalinist period causes me to question how much domestic casualty figures can be attributed to invaders rather than the Soviet system.

A recent article on Magadan in Siberia led me to read Varlam Shalamov's insightful "Kolyma Tales". His laconic brief writing style reminiscent of Hemingway, immerses the reader in the humiliating complexity of the forced labor camps and the mind set of common citizens thrown into a punishment system with actual criminals.

 

[Drakkith]

Reading English translations of Russian authors writing during and after the Stalinist period causes me to question how much domestic casualty figures can be attributed to invaders rather than the Soviet system.

Not sure. My quick foray onto this wikipedia page on Soviet WW2 casualties shows roughly a million dead in gulags inside the Soviet Union and up to 3.2 million dead due to famine and diseases caused by wartime shortages. The casualty estimate from the Axis occupied regions of the Soviet Union still number upwards of 13+ million.

 

[BWV]

Several posters have commented on the devastating losses suffered by the USSR during (what we call) WWII. Reading English translations of Russian authors writing during and after the Stalinist period causes me to question how much domestic casualty figures can be attributed to invaders rather than the Soviet system.

A recent article on Magadan in Siberia led me to read Varlam Shalamov's insightful "Kolyma Tales". His laconic brief writing style reminiscent of Hemingway, immerses the reader in the humiliating complexity of the forced labor camps and the mind set of common citizens thrown into a punishment system with actual criminals.

the Civilian deaths can be attributed to Germany and its goal to create Lebensraum bY exterminating 70-80% of the Slavic population of the USSR. Additionally, the majority of Holocaust victims were Soviet citizens. German Einsatzgruppen followed the Invading army and executed several million Jews well before the creation of the extermination camps like Auschwitz. The German army employed scorched Earth tactics that created widespread starvation in occupied territories and also conscripted civilians for slave labor back in Germans The high level of military casualties came equally from crude human wave type tactics, particularly early in the war, and the simple price of facing the bulk of the German army and paying a similar price paid by French and Commonwealth troops in WW1

 

[Klystron]

No argument from my perspective on the perfidy of nazi Germany and the deplorable tactics employed during WWI. Rather, within the confines of this thread, the historical record of life and death within the USSR requires ongoing research as information becomes exposed and translated after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although an important step in understanding the USSR in this period, I have never been satisfied with Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's scholarship and bias.

As a recipient of a classical education I chose the years between WWI and WWII, inclusive, as "my period" of study. Security, censorship and cultural bias left numerous lacunae in understanding the Soviet revolution and subsequent governments. Even as an adult, I found more similarities than opposites understanding policy within Stalinist USSR and nazi Germany. Admittedly, I much prefer studying American Jazz and Weimar Dada movements, for examples during this period, to trying to fathom the evil of concentration camps and ingrained antisemitism in both countries.

 

[AlexCaledin]

From Erwin Bartmann's memoir - how the anti-Jew hatred was being imposed on the German troops:

The train slowed. Life returned to the bored faces of my Kameraden. A sign drifted past the window: Kraków. Even before the train juddered to a halt, the carriage doors crashed open. We poured onto the platform and lined up in our platoons to await further instructions. ‘There is no transport available. We must march to our destination,’ explained an officer. The evening air was pleasantly mild and I looked forward to stretching my legs after the long journey. Singing our soldiers’ songs, our hob-nailed boots struck the cobbled road in perfect synchrony – a thousand feet, a single entity, a single will – the realisation of my boyhood dream of joining the Leibstandarte. In the fading light, a double set of tram rails led us over a bridge spanning the River Vistula. After a short distance, they disappeared under two massive timber gates, each surmounted by a curving archway carrying an inscription written in Hebrew. On top of the central pillar separating the gates was the Judenstern (Star of David). As if by its own will, the gate on the right creaked open at our approach, the entrance to a dark and sinister world. Our mouths fell silent as we marched through the dingy streets. From the open windows of apartment blocks, gaunt faces stared at us with haunted eyes. Jeers of hatred rose up from behind the open doors of the dilapidated buildings. Hands with piss pots in them darted from upstairs windows to fling their contents over us. ‘Do not react,’ ordered an officer, ‘they have their own customs and laws here.’ After leaving the ghetto, we followed the rise in the road until we reached the barracks where units of the Waffen SS Division Totenkopf were billeted. We slung our backpacks onto the bunks. Those who had fallen victim to the cascades of urine cleaned themselves up as best they could. Fortunately, most of those in my platoon escaped the soaking.

https://books.google.com/books?id=oOnZAwAAQBAJ

 

[BWV]

Yes, and not just the SS - the regular German army as well - its a myth that they were not involved in the Holocaust and other atrocities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

 

[Bandersnatch]

Imagine if 1 out of 5 people in the U.S. were casualties during WW2. Absolutely insane.

It's a hypothetical for the US, but it's the actual proportion lost by Poland.

 

[DennisN]

I saw 1917 (2019) the other day and was completely mesmerized by it. Just an a-m-a-z-i-n-g movie.
Saving Private Ryan is one of my favorite movies, and I liked 1917 at least as much, maybe even more!

The filming is exceptional! They actually did something which has never been made before in the history of movies, but I won't reveal it since it would be a spoiler for those who have not seen it. If you want to see the movie, do not read about it until you've seen it. And if you have seen it, don't reveal it here, please.

What I am thinking of can not be seen in the trailer, which is here:


My rating:

Suspense/Thrill: 11/10
Filming: 10/10
Acting: 9/10
Story: 9/10

...so you may understand that I liked this movie a LOT.
An interesting thing is that even if it depicts mostly men, it was cowritten by one man and one woman.
And they sure did their homework.

If you are interested in WW1, you simply have to see this movie.
And if you are not interested in WW1, you still simply have to see this movie.

 

[pinball1970]

I saw 1917 (2019) the other day and was completely mesmerized by it. Just an a-m-a-z-i-n-g movie.
Saving Private Ryan is one of my favorite movies, and I liked 1917 at least as much, maybe even more!

The filming is exceptional! They actually did something which has never been made before in the history of movies, but I won't reveal it since it would be a spoiler for those who have not seen it. If you want to see the movie, do not read about it until you've seen it. And if you have seen it, don't reveal it here, please.

What I am thinking of can not be seen in the trailer, which is here:


My rating:

Suspense/Thrill: 11/10
Filming: 10/10
Acting: 9/10
Story: 9/10

...so you may understand that I liked this movie a LOT.
An interesting thing is that even if it depicts mostly men, it was cowritten by one man and one woman.
And they sure did their homework.

If you are interested in WW1, you simply have to see this movie.
And if you are not interested in WW1, you still simply have to see this movie.

It's definitely one I want to watch

 

[DennisN]

It's definitely one I want to watch

That sounds good!
I saw it at daytime and still found it very scary, and if I had the opportunity to watch it again for the first time, I would see it in complete darkness instead.

 

[DennisN]

@Drakkith , you are the starter of this thread. Have you seen 1917?

 

[Drakkith]

@Drakkith , you are the starter of this thread. Have you seen 1917?

Yep. Great movie.

 

[DennisN]

After I saw 1917 I did some wikireading on WW1 and stumbled upon three interesting facts I did not know:

• There are still areas of "no mans land" from WW1 that are forbidden to visit, due to the large amount of unexploded ammunition and large levels of toxins present. The areas in France are called Zone Rouge* (Red Zone):

• Erich Ludendorff had such extreme views that the Nazis did not want to associate with him (!).
  
  Erich Ludendorff was one of the two de facto leaders of Germany during WW1, along with Hindenburg; Germany became practically a military dictatorship during the war. Ludendorff is very much connected to Hitler and the rise of the Nazis and therefore also World War II, which is another indicator of how much the two world wars are connected.
  
  Ludendorff got quite extreme and crazy after the loss of World War I, and got into conspiracy theories and antisemitism. He got so extreme that the Nazis did not want to associate with him (!), quote:
  
  "Ludendorff's behavior became more erratic. Years before, he had begun a romantic affair with psychologist Dr. Mathilde Kemnitz, a Nazi hanger-on with delusional theories that Word War I had been orchestrated by an alliance of Jews, Catholic Jesuits, and Freemasons. Former friends distanced themselves from him, with even the Nazis eventually declaring him too extreme."
  
  He is also very much connected to the Stab-in-the-back myth which contributed to the political success of the Nazis in Germany, quote:
  
  "Malcolm asked him: "Do you mean, General, that you were stabbed in the back?" Ludendorff's eyes lit up and he leapt upon the phrase like a dog on a bone. "Stabbed in the back?" he repeated. "Yes, that's it, exactly, we were stabbed in the back". And thus was born a legend which has never entirely perished."
  
  Articles:
  Stab in the back myth - Origins of the myth
  Everything You Need to Know About the Nazi Villain from 'Wonder Woman'

• Early versions of modern tanks was first introduced in World War I, and the word "tank" is not directly related to its use. It was a word they chose to keep the development secret, quote:
  
  "In Great Britain, an initial vehicle, nicknamed Little Willie, was constructed at William Foster & Co., during August and September 1915. The prototype of a new design that became the Mark I tank was demonstrated to the British Army on February 2, 1916. Although initially termed "Landships" by the Landship Committee, production vehicles were named "tanks", to preserve secrecy. The term was chosen when it became known that the factory workers at William Foster referred to the first prototype as "the tank" because of its resemblance to a steel water tank."
  
  Source: Tanks in World War I

--------------------------------------------------------------

* In 2004 I was on a trip in France with two friends where we participated in the 60th anniversary of D-Day (The Normandy invasion in 1944). We camped close beside Omaha Beach.

We visited a lot of other historical places, among them Oradour-Sur Glane where I took many photos which I later released as public domain (some of them are here on the Wikipedia page). The interesting result of releasing them as public domain is that I have seen some of my photos appear in e.g. newspapers all over the world in articles about Oradour-Sur Glane, which made me quite happy; it was quite satisfying to unexpectedly achieve some historical impact with mere tourist photos.

We also visited Verdun which is famous for the Battle of Verdun in 1916 during WW1.
And Verdun is very close to the Red Zone of "no mans land". Here are some photos I took in Verdun:

A monument:

Another monument:

Another monument:

Top of the monument:

(some photo artifacts, because I removed my two friends from the photo as I do not have asked them permission to post them publicly)

A big gun:

(some photo artifacts, because I removed my two friends from the photo as I do not have asked them permission to post them publicly)

The barrel of the big gun: