Formic acid and glycerin as dielectric substances

[norbert]

Hello everybody
I have tried to obtain but I have not been successful the dielectric strength or breakdown voltage values of following materials...

these are: FORMIC ACID and GLYCERIN. (to room temperature)
I need to know these values...
thank you again.

Norbert

 

[NoTime]

Why would you think that either of these exhibits any dieletric properties?

 

[Gokul43201]

Why would you think that either of these exhibits any dieletric properties?

Because they are not vacuum?

 

[NoTime]

Because they are not vacuum?

What's up?
Last I checked, vacuum was a reasonable dielectric.

Wouldn't an acid be fairly conductive and generally not exhibit a breakdown voltge?

 

[Gokul43201]

A theoretical vacuum is the only substance with a dielectric constant of 1, and hence is uninteresting.

Wouldn't an acid be fairly conductive and generally not exhibit a breakdown voltge?

In an aqueous solution, I'd imagine that's true. I thought the OP was talking about the pure, anhydrous compounds. But then, I can't think of a good reason for that info either.

Also, I'm not sure if dielectric breakdown is only defined for static (dc) voltages, because electrolytes have no equilibrium dc conductivity, so even in solution, this might be a relevant question...I just don't know.

 

[NoTime]

A theoretical vacuum is the only substance with a dielectric constant of 1, and hence is uninteresting.

Ok. The 1 is uninteresting cause that's by definition.
OTOH the fact that nothing has a dielectic constant is

substance, hmmmm

In an aqueous solution, I'd imagine that's true. I thought the OP was talking about the pure, anhydrous compounds. But then, I can't think of a good reason for that info either.

Also, I'm not sure if dielectric breakdown is only defined for static (dc) voltages, because electrolytes have no equilibrium dc conductivity, so even in solution, this might be a relevant question...I just don't know.

IIRC anhydrous formic acid is a gas at room temp and is highly reactive.
I suppose that if you had some material that it would not react with, that was also conductive, you might be able to test its dielectric value.
I'm thinking it might be quite a technical challenge.

 

[norbert]

Ok this solution is an organic acid, belong to carboxylic acid group
I suppose that its electrical properties are similar to components in this group.
Sure the breakdown voltage of it depends on the frequency its value falls with it.

 

[NoTime]

Are you ending up with something like an electrolytic capacitor?

The electrolyte forms an oxide layer on the conductive surface.
The oxide layer providing both the breakdown voltage and dielectic value.

 

[norbert]

I have thought to do a complete catalog with the values of many compounds.
of course, the idea is to use after these values to industrial development
the physical condition should be following:
-applied frequency null (dc-voltage)
-room temperature
-normal atmosphere pressure (760mm Hg)
-the formic acid as an aqueous solutions (90%)
I need both dielectric strength value of formic acid and glycerin under same phys-chemical conditions

 

[norbert]

like an electrolytic capacitor, no really.
I´m working with very high dc voltage 50-60 KV at least
the problem is to store this amount of energy in a relatively small device without lost
certainly this is a technical challenge.

 

[Abbarue]

glycerin has a dielectric constant of 42.5 so if it's breakdown voltage is high as well it could be used in high voltage capacitors as an alternative to oil.

 

[Carl Pugh]

Pure water has been used in pulse capacitors. Using water allows the design of a very small high capacitance capacitor.
Google water capacitor and go to wikipedia.org

 

[dlgoff]

glycerin has a dielectric constant of 42.5 so if it's breakdown voltage is high as well it could be used in high voltage capacitors as an alternative to oil.

It's been over 4 years since the OP asked the question. Had I noticed it back then, I would have recommended a Dielectric gas like Sulfur hexafluoride.

The most popular insulating gas. It is dense and rich in fluorine, which is a good discharge quencher. Good cooling properties. Excellent arc quenching.