Automotive Formula Car Cooling: Benefits of Ultra Side Pods & Radiator Setup

[Ranger Mike]

ok racers, here is a subject I have been debating. our formula car uses two aluminum radiators, one on each side. I switched to the Ultra Side pods which are each 5 pounds lighter and 3 inches narrower than the original sets. Benefit is lighter weight and lower aero drag.
now the questions,
1. is it more beneficial to plumb the coolant thru the radiators in series or parallel.
2. Air enters the side pod and exits thru the radiator fins. Is is better to place insulation around the radiator core to smooth the air flow or
leave the radiator bare to help dissipate heat from the sides.
3. the red car photo ( as seen from the front of the car) shows a splitter that spits the incoming flow to the front portion and rear portion of the rad core. I am told that is is not needed on 90 percent of the installations. Note the insulation packed around the rad core.

your keen observations and comments are valued
i will respond as required and as beer permits.
thank you

 

[xxChrisxx]

TSK! Someones left beer cans on your sidepod!

From a cooling standpoint, it depends on how effective the radiators are.

Parallel = potential for more cooling capacity as you are effectively flowing more coolant to the radiators. More complicated as you have to split the plumbing. Series = better cooling on lower flow rates, probably eaaiser to plumb in.

Your best bet is to estiamte the cooling capacity of the radiator, then calcualte the maximum fluid flow rate with each scenario. Which ever gives a higher heat transfer value is the one to go for. This will also depend on how good the pump is.

I'd be tempted to say that parallel will probably be better.I don't see the point in the splitter in the red case, unless the flow was seperating on entry and stalling a bit in the sidepod or something like that.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Thanks Chris
the car originally had parallel. we switched it over to series when i went to an electric water pump. temps were about the same...its a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder..
the splitter thing is a last resort i think..no one in our race series runs it. one big benefit is that the series plumbing makes purging trapped air easier.

who left that beer can there!

 

[xxChrisxx]

Thanks Chris
the car originally had parallel. we switched it over to series when i went to an electric water pump. temps were about the same...its a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder..
the splitter thing is a last resort i think..no one in our race series runs it. one big benefit is that the series plumbing makes purging trapped air easier.

who left that beer can there!

Well if there is no difference in cooling capacity, you may as well just do what is easiest and less fiddly. Infact, unless you were marginal on cooling a series system would probably be better overall anyway, purely becuase problems are easier to sort quickly in the pits.

What sort of single seater is it?
It looks like a big verson of an old formula ford.

 

[Ranger Mike]

1988 Reynard racing in Club Formula Continental series in SCCA
Formula Fords run a 1600 cc engine and little shorter and lighter.
this car is supposed to have 150 hp and weighs 1190 pounds coming off the track after the race..but we all know about HP and the rule book too
don't we!

 

[Ranger Mike]

old side pods vs new ultra side pods
not readily apparent but the new ones are much narrower
again a trade off as the old pods made a much wider diffusser area under the car which increased down force...so we trade off losing a little down force for high speed cornering but gain less drag overall
racing is one big compromise

 

[tyroman]

Ranger Mike,

Looks like a LOT of FUN!

Your first question;
"1. is it more beneficial to plumb the coolant thru the radiators in series or parallel."

Pump considerations;
In series, there will be a greater pressure drop in the coolant piping which will cause your centrifugal water pump to "back up" on its performance curve, delivering lower gpm at higher head. In parallel, the coolant pressure drop seen by the pump will be lower, allowing it to "run out" on its curve to a higher gpm at lower head.

Radiator considerations;
The radiator's thermal performance will be affected by the flow rate... of both the coolant and the air. When deciding between series and parallel plumbing, remember that coolant (tube-side) flow should be kept as near to the design flow rate as possible. Lower flow will reduce coolant turbulance which will reduce heat transfer efficiency. Higher flow can cause cavitation which will erode the tubes from the inside out. The air flow (fin-side) should be as uniform as possible across the face of the radiator. To achieve this, some sort of splitter might be beneficial.

Heat transfer considerations;
Generally, you want to operate with as high a delta T between the coolant and the air as possible. This is because heat flow goes as the log of the mean temperature difference (LMTD) between the hot (coolant) and cold (air) fluids. Taken alone (without consideration of other factors discussed above) this means that parallel piping will give the greatest cooling efficiency because both radiators will see the maximum inlet coolant temp. In series, the inlet coolant temp to the second radiator will be lower due to pre-cooling through the first radiator.

Your second question;
"2. Air enters the side pod and exits thru the radiator fins. Is is better to place insulation around the radiator core to smooth the air flow or leave the radiator bare to help dissipate heat from the sides."

The "insulation" is most probably there to eliminate by-pass of air around the radiator. The heat exchange (coolant to air) will be most efficient at the extended surface of the fins. Heat exchange at the headers or through the frame of the radiator will be relatively inefficient. Keep the air flow across the fins.

For your third question, see "Radiator considerations" above.

Have fun, and remember; "Keep the shiny side up!"

.

 

[Ranger Mike]

excellent advise..this forum is GOLD
ok i will work on maximum air flow thru the vanes
and plumb so it is back to parallel for best results..if i can get it to over coool i can then tape off the inlets for the season and narrow the pods even more next winter..thanks again
ranger mike

 

[tyroman]

Whoa Nellie...

Before you re-plumb, check on the specs for your radiators and water pump.

My post simply outlined the "considerations" involved in making your decision, I did not recommend a solution because I do not have sufficient data... you do have (or should be able to get) that data.

For example, let's make the "ASSUMPTION" that each radiator needs at least 70 gpm to have tube-side turbulent flow but will cavitate if flow is greater than 150 gpm (these specs should be available from the manufacturer).

Now, "IF" your pump delivers 100 gpm at the pressure required for parallel piping, then (if you plumb the two radiators in parallel) each radiator will get only 50 gpm and tube-side flow might be laminar (which is not good for heat transfer).

On the other hand, "IF" your pump will deliver only 80 gpm at the higher pressure required for series piping, then (if you plumb the two radiators in series) each radiator will get 80 gpm and tube-side flow will be turbulent (which is good for heat transfer).

Another case; "IF" your pump will deliver 160 gpm to series-plumbed radiators, then you should not pipe them in series... cavitation. Though the pump will deliver a higher flowrate (say 200 gpm) to parallel plumbed radiators, this flow rate is split between the two (100 gpm each) and you are back inside the design envelope for your radiators.

So... before you re-plumb, get more info.

PS: The attached sketch might help you understand the issue. It shows an example where you would want to plumb the radiators in series to avoid laminar flow. Two operating points for a pump are shown (intersection of pump performance curve with two piping system curves -- series and parallel).

.

 

[turbo]

Hi, RM. If it is allowed by the rules, is there any way for you to tap in on the discharge side of the oil pump and put a small radiator-type oil-cooler? If you could reduce the oil temperature that way, it might lessen the load on the side-radiators and allow you to block them off even more to make your car more slippery. It might not be feasible in your application (unless perhaps you could hook in at the oil-filter connection) but it sure saved the day with my hopped-up Wide-Glide. On hot days running high revs with a high-performance engine, air-cooled mills can use all the help they can get. Due to the high compression ratio, I had to run high-test fuel to avoid pre-ignition, and the oil cooler bought me a little extra cushion. You can simply wrap it or block it off when air temperatures get low.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Thanks Turbo and Tyroman
we run the Hewland transaxel that is aluminum and houses the oil sump..thought about an oil cooler but things are real tight under the fairings..do good place to hang it in decent air flow...
we run a remote waterpump ..20 GPM flow rate
been doing this for 5 years now...
like i said, the original setup was parallel
i learned something in this thread..the best heat transfer occurs when the fluid is exposed to the largest temperature difference.
the remote pump has a 1 inch outlet but..the plumbing is 1 1/4 inch going into 3/4 inch radiator inlet and outlet...so i guess running 7/8 inch hose will not impact anything,,right?
i may go to AN 12 fittings to make plumbing easier

 

[tyroman]

The waterpump photo you attached looks like the Meziere model WP136S found here;

http://www.meziere.com/ps-892-860-wp136s.aspx

In the specs, they say;
"Standard motor provides 20 gallons per minute free flow rating"

So 20 gpm will be the coolant flow rate if nothing is connected to the pump outlet - "free flow".

I talked with Dave, (an engineer at Meziere 1.800.208.1755) who said the pump "shut-off" is at 6psi. In other words, with 6psi of piping/radiator pressure drop, the pump will deliver 0 gallons per minute. While Dave says they do not publish a performance curve for the pump, he suggested approximating performance as linear... see my sketch attached.

On your questions about plumbing size, see the spec page above, which says;

"Single inlet port threaded #12AN to accept a variety of fittings"
and
"Single outlet port threaded #12AN to accept a variety of line connection options"
and
"#12AN fittings available for #08AN, #10AN, #12AN, #16AN, 5/8", 3/4", 1", or 1 1/4" slip hose."

So you have several options depending on how much pressure drop you have to play with.

And that brings me to the radiator specs... do you know the design flow rates (min & max) for the radiators and what the design pressure drop will be for that range?

With that information and the approximate pump curve attached, we will be able to answer your questions.

.

 

[turbo]

Thanks Turbo and Tyroman
we run the Hewland transaxel that is aluminum and houses the oil sump..thought about an oil cooler but things are real tight under the fairings..do good place to hang it in decent air flow...

Remember that you don't need a lot of air flow nor a lot of transfer surface to make a radiative oil cooler work because the oil is much hotter than the ambient air so your heat transfer rate will be high. There are some very small radiative oil coolers made for H-D applications, and I'll bet you'd be able to fit one or two in very easily, perhaps on the discharge ends of your side-radiator housings. The air coming out of your water-radiators is still going to be significantly cooler than the oil circulating through the oil coolers. Just a thought.

 

[turbo]

BTW, if you try this, run the oil through the filter first, when the heat and the low viscosity will give you the best flow-rate, and then run the oil through the coolers before returning it to the engine. No point in letting viscosity throttle oil-flow in this case.

 

[Ranger Mike]

excellent advise on both counts ..i will add a small oi lcooler after the side mods are completed..i can snake it into the rear wing mount i think..
i have no specs on the radiator..which brings us to another learning point...
how to calculate the rad cooling specs..
i will make some phone calls tommorow to see if the shops selling the radiators have any specs but typically these come from UK where the Reynard was made.

.
you guys are SUPER GOOD!
i am glad i got on this website a year ago!

 

[tyroman]

A theoretical calculation of thermal performance and pressure drop for an automotive radiator is extremely complex. The manufacturer will "bench-test" a prototype to come up with these values. They should have this information available if you can track them down.

Knowing the number and size of tubes in the radiator, you could calculate the minimum flow rate necessary for turbulance fairly easily.

But cavitation caused by an excessive flow rate will occur at the header end, where flow direction changes suddenly. I do not know how a manufacturer determines this value, but I would expect destructive testing might be used.

A thermal performance calculation would require detailed information about the radiator (fin thickness, spacing, area, material, method of attachment, etc.) and even if this info was available, the calculation would be very complex and yield only a "theoretical" value. Bench testing with known flow rates, pressures and temperatures is much easier and reliable.

So... do what you can to track down the manufacturer's data.

.

 

[Ranger Mike]

no such luck on rad specs...but
the two rads cooled it successfully from day one
i did rework the plumbing back to parallel with minimum of .800 ID in all the plumbing..if i went to AN 12 fiitings it would be .700 id and don't know impact of this but .100 is a lot in my opinion
and adding a small oil cooler can only help i figure
i wish to thank you all...i learned a lot and is this not what it is about?

 

[dr dodge]

ranger
if you end up in Houston for any events, let me know
i can help with the beer and food situation

dr

 

[Ranger Mike]

I just may..my work takes me all over..i was at texas motor speedway a few years back before going to san antonio..lonnnnnnggg drive..


Merry Christmas Dr.


and all of you posters...your jaded cynical wry sense of humor keeps me on my toes...
just remember

age and deceit will always over come youth and enthusiasm!

 

[dr dodge]

happy holidays to you to ranger
and everyone else here
glad I found this place

dr

 

[Ranger Mike]

Rex raced the car this weekend..the temperature was 85 degrees F but the car water temperature was over 110 degrees C which is over 231 F...
how much more cooling can be expected if i plumb it back to series ..it is parallel plumbed as it came from t he factory..
we have 6 quarts coolant..would it help if i increased capacity by two or three quarts?
should we add another radiator core some where.
we have not tried splitters and think something more should be done..what do you think?

btw we won 2 20 lap races and got 2nd place on a 12 lap race..laps are 2.4 miles

 

[dr dodge]

how cool do you expect it to run? Maybe some kind of finned tubing added to the system (kind of like the baseboard heaters have) would sluff a little more temp. glad ya'll kicked some butt, too

dr

 

[Ranger Mike]

thanks..ideal temp is 90 to 100 C,,i think volume is the key...but need input from people wiser than I

 

[xxChrisxx]

tbh i'd just try adding more coolant for the moment. it's easy and if it fixes the problem, great. If not, then you it's deffo a heat transfer issue and you need to start looking at the plumbing.

Although two wins and a 2nd means the car must be holding togheter ok.

edit: Do you have the facilities for testing of some description?

 

[Ranger Mike]

we have a pretty good machine shop and can test just about anything...and thanks for the input..i think the coolant volume is not enough...adding 2 to 3 quart may do it..

 

[brewnog]

If your system is full, I don't see how adding volume will help by much at all. I'd be looking at increasing the size of your radiators (or getting more air flow over them).

Are you using water or glycol? Inhibited water will give you a few degrees over 50/50glycol mix.

Is 110deg C so bad?

 

[Ranger Mike]

i figured out why the car ran hotter on Sunday with same outside temperature. we added antifreeze to the water wetter and water coolant. as i understand it ,antifreeze will raise the boil point. i also went from 13 pound radiator cap to a 19 psi cap. the antifreeze acts as a slimy coating and cuts down on heat transfer to the aluminum radiators. everyone else is running distilled water and water wetter. also we are not running trick redline engine oil ..just synthetic Mobile 1 oil rated 5 w 30 and am told this is street car oil..all other cars running these narrow side pods are running temps of 90 to 100C which is ok with me..

 

[brewnog]

While antifreeze modifies the boiling point, its specific heat capacity is much lower than water. Simply put, a litre of glycol at 100deg C carries less heat from your engine than a litre of water.

 

[Ranger Mike]

thanks brewnog..makes sense to me...so adding some cooling fins and such may do more than upping the volume of water would...right?

 

[xxChrisxx]

You aren't going to get a significant increase with cooling fins + radiator over the radiators by themselves. Making the radiators work slightly better is a better bet.

I'd be more inclined to try different coolant, and see if any part of the radiator is getting bad airflow before adding fins.

I tend to tread lightly about adding stuff, as there tends to be scope for a little gain, but a large scope for screwing something up. eg. the fins may alter the airflow so the radiator is starved of air.

 

[turbo]

Hi, Ranger. I think that an aggressive coolant flush is called for, to clean the interior surfaces of your radiators, then go back to clean water and wetting agent to maximize surface-wetting and heat transfer. You've got to flush the entire coolant system, since the glycol will have glommed onto the rough-cast surfaces in the block. You need maximum heat transfer not only at the radiators but from the block to the coolant.

Did you manage to get a couple of oil-coolers installed downstream of your oil filter? That will knock down the load on your cooling system.

 

[Ranger Mike]

thanks turbo...am adding oil cooler before next outing and yes...i think flush is in order...wonder what i can flush to clean out all the antifreeze crap?

 

[Ranger Mike]

if water and water wetter boil at 250 degrees F with a 15 psi radiator cap
what temp will this boil with a 18 psi radiator cap?

 

[turbo]

thanks turbo...am adding oil cooler before next outing and yes...i think flush is in order...wonder what i can flush to clean out all the antifreeze crap?

You can get a flush kit from an automotive supply place. I believe that the stuff you add to your clean water after the initial flush is a caustic solution, like Drano, though it's probably buffered to prevent corrosion. You'd run that solution through the cooling system for a while, then drain and rinse several times with flushes of clean water, before filling with distilled water + wetting agent.

Ethylene glycol is very thick and slimy-feeling, and that can inhibit heat transfer both from the block to the coolant and from the coolant to the radiators.

 

[brewnog]

Oil coolers (unless with oil-air heat exchangers) won't help; in fact they'll make things worse. Oil coolers take heat from the oil (which would otherwise disspitate through the engine's surface area and exhaust) and put it to coolant, putting extra thermal load on your cooling system. An oil cooler can put anywhere between 2-20 degrees Celsius to coolant.

18psi vs 15psi, look up boiling point in a steam table. Mine's at work. I guess something in the region of 5-10 degrees Celsius.

 

[Ranger Mike]

thanks guys,,,,this forum is priceless regarding the experience and wealth of information and sage advice. i was thinking of air finned oil cooler if i can find in line model.
i think we will be safe with the water wetter and 18 psi cap...it never boiled at 240 deg F
you guys are great,,,thanks
rm

 

[brewnog]

Air finned oil cooler would help. Check pressure drop at your required flow rate! And be careful with the uprated pressure cap; the coolant WILL be at a higher pressure as a result.

 

[turbo]

Hey, RM, haunt the Harley-Davidson aftermarket dealers. They will carry compact air-finned oil coolers. You can hide them in your fairing behind the radiators, since even the warm air coming off the radiators is WAY cooler than the oil, and you'll cool the oil enough to take some load off the water coolant circuit. Remember that you'll want to send the oil through the oil filter first so you won't bottle-neck that filter flow with high-viscosity oil.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

For the boiling point of water vs. temperature, you can generate a chart from the NIST website.

Link to the thermophysical properties page: http://webbook.nist.gov/chemistry/fluid/

Link to a pre-made chart of what you're after, water boiling point w.r.t temp: http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/fluid.c...nit=mph&VisUnit=uPa*s&STUnit=N/m&RefState=DEF

I attached a screenshot of the chart in case the link doesn't work. Keep in mind the pressure is absolute pressure, so you'll need to subtract 14.7 psi (1atm) to get the gauge pressure rating of a theoretical radiator cap. To put it another way, an 18psi radiator cap plus 14.7psi (atmospheric at sea level) equals 32.7psi absolute.

For a 15psi cap + 14.7psi atmospheric (29.7 absolute): Boiling point is 249.8 fahrenheit
For a 18psi cap + 14.7psi atmospheric (32.7 absolute): Boiling point is 255.4 fahrenheit

EDIT- keep in mind some antifreeze mixtures also modify the boiling point of water. The numbers above are for pure water only.

 

[turbo]

BTW, RM, you can get screw-in converters for Harleys (maybe Jagg) that are threaded the same as the oil filter, and have a female thread for your standard oil filter to thread into. The converter features a nipple to allow you to route the oil after it goes through the filter to your oil coolers, and another nipple to route the cooled oil back to the engine. If you have enough outboard clearance at the filter location to allow this, it's a really slick conversion. The converter is a couple of inches thick and IIR, it costs only about $90. If you're lucky, they have a similar converter for your oil-cooler application.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Thanks Mech Engineer...i think if it gets to 255 weare cooked anyway...but i go some margin to play with..

thanks turbo...i sure will check it out...good idea
rm

 

[RonL]

Ranger Mike,
Looks like we have a $180 M track (+ over run expenses of course) coming to Austin Tx. If all goes according to plan it will complete in 2012. Will you run in a class that brings you to this track ?
I know very little about this class of racing and a quick glance at the rules of formula 1 racing makes it clear the power-train is held to very tight standards. How much room in methods of cooling is there for making changes ?

If you can get wild and crazy, I might can throw something out to you that let's the side coolers be removed completely and a method of heat removal that can be variable based on a number of different things. I think water can be replaced with some kind of refrigerant which might produce a much better thermal transfer delta and a fan design that will allow all other heat exchangers to be removed.

If rules are not too restrictive and you care to look deeper into what I'm thinking, send a PM to me. I got the impression from one post, that you might have a shop and resources to carry out the research and development should the design and numbers look right.

Who knows ?

RonL

 

[Ranger Mike]

SCCA is sanctioning organization that we race in. about 250000 members in USA...is probably the largest part time race club in world with road course tracks all over the country. we race MID OHIO and many others in Indiana, Michigan..Kentucky is supposed to have blue grass race way but its not opened yet..my driver has won at them all .. Watkins Glen, Road America, Virginia International Raceway..and many many Mid Ohio checkers...love to trailer to Texas but will see how economy is...ref: cooling idea..heck yes..always looking for new wrinkle ..send me message and we can look over..thanks Ron L

 

[Ranger Mike]

think i got the cooling problem fixed. plumbed radiators in series..used water wetter and distilled water. we ran it two days in 75 degree beautiful weather..it got to 95 degrees C and no hotter. i did go with red line synthetic oil which is super trick and costs $ 10 per quart...last resort was to add an oil cooler but this would add weight and there just is not a lot of room under the fiberglass body for it. we won one race, got second in last race...some new young kid ran 4 seconds quicker than us and the kid never been on the track before...hummmm, and my driver been track champion last 6 years? makes you wonder...right?

 

[anand0524]

hello everyone,
Im a student participating in Formula SAE event, i want a little help on Radiator connection on my teams, we are using 1.0L S-TEC II I4 petrol engine of Chevy Beat,as it consists of 1 radiator we want two radiator concept having on sidepods,how to make connections as I have seen radiators without caps on this forum and I am also facing problem on height issue as in passenger cars radiator is placed slightly above or parallel to engine height as in our prototype model we used two stock radiators on side pods with parallel connection but after filling radiators water was not reaching to engine and engine started becoming hot..

basically i want to know how customization of radiators are done & how connection is made properly using 2 radiators,,pls reply

 

[Ranger Mike]

welcome ..in my opinion , for the guy starting out, plumb the dual rad system in series to avoid air pockets. I think if you are NOT running an electric water pump. you should have bleeders at each radiator as a minimum. These can be simple petcock fittings. You need a radiator cap at the max height of the system and attached to the water expansion tank ( burp can). Finally you need an over flow can as well.

 

[anand0524]

it means that i will have to use 2 radiators with perfect calculation having lateral flow,Without radiator cap arrangement on it, with only water inlet and outlet present and should be connected in series connection, And place the water expansion tank having radiator cap at max height,..

and what is bleeders at each radiator and the expansion tank is a can with radiator cap arrangement on it and hollow frm inside with one inlet & one outlet for water on it?? -explain...

 

[xxChrisxx]

First, why are you planning to run 2 radiators over running 1?
It's implied that you are going to use 2 of the current radiators.

Have you worked out how much cooling you will need?
You've got to be careful not to overcool, as an engine that doesn't get up to temperature isn't going to run as well as one that does.

 

[anand0524]

First, why are you planning to run 2 radiators over running 1?
It's implied that you are going to use 2 of the current radiators.

Have you worked out how much cooling you will need?
You've got to be careful not to overcool, as an engine that doesn't get up to temperature isn't going to run as well as one that does.

Each and every calculation is done, and how much water is required,And even the optimum size of radiators has also been calculated,,we are using 2 radiators on both sidepods to balance the weight on either side..

only connection arrangement parts are left to be done.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

If you run radiators in parallel, care must be taken to ensure one isn't flowing 90% of the fluid while the other does almost nothing.