Gay in the hard sciences? (no pun intended)

[adrian87]

I saw a post on this forum from a few years ago ('07) asking the same question, but I thought it might be good to ask it again: Is anyone here a gay physicist, chemist, etc. in the hard sciences?

It'd be nice to have someone to chat with online that's in the same situation, since it is rather isolating. I dated a guy for about 9 months, but that's recently ended, and part of it had to do with the fact that he was in music, I was in physics, and those disciplines tend not to mix well - we both ended up suppressing parts of ourselves that had to do with our profession in order to be together, which was bad for both of us.

I know of one lesbian physics grad student in my university, so that counts two LGBT people in my physics department, which is probably higher than whatever the norm might be for the northwest (I'm in Idaho), but it is rather sad to not even have the possibility of meeting someone in the same discipline, mostly because it's just plain hard to talk about science with people that aren't in it as a profession...

 

[Evo]

I can't think of anything sillier. Since when does a person's sexual preference have anything to do with a subject you are taking?

I'm unlocking this because some people think the OP isn't looking for people to hook up with.

I don't like people making it sound like gay people are some strange group of people that don't fit into society and that a person's sexual preference would somehow make that person think about something like science in a way that other "normal" people would not. I don't like the stigmatism that goes along with those lines of thought.

I can't imagine how it would matter if another scientist or student was gay, unless I was looking for someone to hook up with sexually, and this forum isn't for that.

 

[adrian87]

If you were asking that question with the honest intent of getting an answer, I'd suggest looking at the previous post about this on this very forum in the same section:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=177594

It isn't silly, and it has very much to do with a person's choice of field. You may not have noticed, since my guess is you're straight and don't have to deal with this issue, but one stereotype does hold true with gay men at least - a lot of them go into the arts, and very few go into the hard sciences. It makes for a lonely existence since not only are you isolated as a minority for being interested in physics in the general population, the people you would be interested in hanging around / dating are even less interested in science as a profession than the general populous. If you're too heartless to recognize the legitimacy of this topic, I sure hope you don't have any gay friends. They'd probably be ashamed.

update since you changed your original response:

I guess I do need to make it clear - I'm not looking for a hook-up. It would be a completely ridiculous idea to post on a physics forum for such a thing, not to mention it's not something I'd be interested into begin with.

Also, I don't feel that there's anything special to how a gay person vs. a straight person might think about physics. The reason behind the post was mostly to reach out and see if anyone else on here is currently in the same situation of isolation. Friends with a common situation, even if only online, can be good support. I felt like I'd have a better chance of finding someone to talk to if I started a new thread vs. commenting on the older one, since it is about 2 years old.

 

[Evo]

We'll I'm a female working in male dominated field. For years I was the only woman in the entire department. Going to conventions and seminars, out of thousands, I was one of a handful of women. And I was excluded from many "good ol' boy's groups that felt that women weren't capable of understanding. So, I do know what it's like to be a "minority" in school and professionally. Plus I couldn't choose to hide the fact that I was female, so that made it a bit harder.

Right now, not only am I a woman in a field dominated by men, but I am an agnostic/atheist working in an office of christian fundamentalists and Young Earth Creationists. Believe me when I tell you that I don't look for social partners within my place of work.

 

[Civilized]

"Sex is the mathematical urge subliminated." - M.C. Reed

 

[phyzmatix]

...but I am an agnostic/atheist working in an office of christian fundamentalists and Young Earth Creationists. Believe me when I tell you that I don't look for social partners within my place of work.

Reminds me of a corny pun: "Atheism is a non-prophet organization."

Hehehe!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Are there any scientists out there married to a Chinese? Once in a great while I discuss scientific matters with my wife and they always end up with "That's not what the Buddha teaches." We quickly turn to preparations for Chinese New Year. We've been at it for 20 years now and this thread has made me realize how isolating it is. If you are married to a Japanese please do not respond.

 

[Evo]

Reminds me of a corny pun: "Atheism is a non-prophet organization."

Hehehe!

 

[adrian87]

Right now, not only am I a woman in a field dominated by men, but I am an agnostic/atheist working in an office of christian fundamentalists and Young Earth Creationists. Believe me when I tell you that I don't look for social partners within my place of work.

Evo, is the job you're working out of choice or necessity? That sounds like a pretty horrible social situation, though I suppose as long as religion doesn't come up at the workplace and everyone's "professional", it wouldn't be much of an issue. My experience growing up in an Adventist (conservative) home left me disillusioned with religion in general, but I still think people at church are some of the nicest/most caring people I've ever met if you manage to not step on their toes with hot-button issues.

 

[turbo]

It isn't silly, and it has very much to do with a person's choice of field. You may not have noticed, since my guess is you're straight and don't have to deal with this issue, but one stereotype does hold true with gay men at least - a lot of them go into the arts, and very few go into the hard sciences.

That stereotype certainly held true in the late 60s and early 70s. I had a lot of gay friends in college and I can't think of a single one who was engaged in a heavy science curriculum - certainly none were in my engineering track. Many were in theater, music, horticulture, sociology, literature, art history and political science - pretty much all liberal-arts tracks of one kind or another. One guy was in a pre-med track and later was a nurse in a nearby ICU - he had my wife in his care for a while after a car accident. Nice surprise to bump into him there. He used to pick my brain from time to time about chemistry problems, but he was about the only gay friend in my dorm that had an interest in the sciences.

Times were different then, too. The ladies in my freshman engineering class were outnumbered by 300:5. Chances of finding a female study-partner were slim, to put it mildly.

For some perspective, though, my wife and I have some shared interests, including cooking, gardening, etc. Just because she never shared my work interests, nor I hers didn't mean that we had to "give up" something to be together. We've been together for just about 35 years now and it's been great. If you find a nice guy that you click with, don't hesitate to explore commonalities, and don't dwell on differences. Those things work out. If you're having a knotty technical problem at work, you don't need to take that home with you and hash it all out with your significant other. Leave that concern at work - you'll be a lot happier in the long run. Good luck.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I still think people at church are some of the nicest/most caring people I've ever met if you manage to not step on their toes with hot-button issues.

Is hard science a hot-button issue?

 

[adrian87]

Is hard science a hot-button issue?

Depends on the science! Earlier, I was referring more to the fact that as long as you're not blatantly intolerant of a conservative christian co-worker's beliefs / make gestures to be diplomatic, it's pretty easy to get along with them in a work environment if the work itself doesn't deal with the hot-button issues - gay marriage, stem cells, politics, and so on.

 

[mgb_phys]

I would recommend you stay out of astronomy. Since most astronomers are gorgeous stud-muffin types and you wouldn't be able to concentrate on your work spending all day surrounded by this grade of beefcake. *
I recommend high energy physics, it's all beards and lumber jack shirts over there.

(* I think this is also the reason there are so few women in astronomy)

 

[Evo]

Reminds me of a corny pun: "Atheism is a non-prophet organization."

Hehehe!

 

[adrian87]

I would recommend you stay out of astronomy. Since most astronomers are gorgeous stud-muffin types and you wouldn't be able to concentrate on your work spending all day surrounded by this grade of beefcake. *
I recommend high energy physics, it's all beards and lumber jack shirts over there.

(* I think this is also the reason there are so few women in astronomy)

Actually, this seems to be true in my experience. I was a high school physics intern at ISU (a summer program for right before college), and the one guy I was pretty attracted to was going into astrophysics/astronomy. Too bad he went to a school in Utah instead ;)

Also, ISU's physics department is rather one-note to my dismay (I'm interested in solar energy technologies) - they focus on nuclear sciences and have several linear accelerator facilities for doing experiments. Most of the faculty are the beards/suspenders/plaid shirts type.

 

[Evo]

Evo, is the job you're working out of choice or necessity? That sounds like a pretty horrible social situation, though I suppose as long as religion doesn't come up at the workplace and everyone's "professional", it wouldn't be much of an issue. My experience growing up in an Adventist (conservative) home left me disillusioned with religion in general, but I still think people at church are some of the nicest/most caring people I've ever met if you manage to not step on their toes with hot-button issues.

I've never thought it was a good idea to get romantically involved with someone that I worked with. Tried it once and when we broke up, one of us had to leave. I left, I fortunately had a better job offer. Work is work, not a social environment, makes it easier to get along with people if everything stays at a proper business level.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I would recommend you stay out of astronomy. Since most astronomers are gorgeous stud-muffin types and you wouldn't be able to concentrate on your work spending all day surrounded by this grade of beefcake.

*sigh* http://www.melitatrips.com/bios/bio_filippenko.html". :!)

 

[AUMathTutor]

I think questioning the prevalence of any group in any field is silly. This includes: gays, blacks, women, hispanics, and people who are left-handed. It's all a bunch of P.C. hippie balogna.

(* 21 year old, straight, CS/Physics, WASP talking)

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I think questioning the prevalence of any group in any field is silly. This includes: gays, blacks, women, hispanics, and people who are left-handed. It's all a bunch of P.C. hippie balogna.

(* 21 year old, straight, CS/Physics, WASP talking)

That's what I was getting at myself, but in too obscure a way. On those rare occasions when two human beings encounter each other up there in Idaho, or any other unihabitable country, they ought to take each other as they are, both of them.

Why do you think that your problems with your lover are different than any other couple who have interests that differ? I guess the real question is not whether you have different interests, but whether you have any common interests.

 

[S_Happens]

I guess the real question is not whether you have different interests, but whether you have any common interests.

Bingo. If the OP requires that a significant other shares a professional interest in science, then that's his personal choice to severly limit his options. There are lots of people who have strong relationships where chosen professions do not overlap. My wife cares little for the sciences, while I can't get enough. That doesn't mean that we don't share many other common interests.

 

[Pengwuino]

It'd be nice to have someone to chat with online that's in the same situation, since it is rather isolating. I dated a guy for about 9 months, but that's recently ended, and part of it had to do with the fact that he was in music, I was in physics, and those disciplines tend not to mix well - we both ended up suppressing parts of ourselves that had to do with our profession in order to be together, which was bad for both of us.

I think you're in the wrong field to get much sympathy with regards to your problem. Let's see, my department is about... 50 guys, 2 girls? 0 available girls and it's been that way for about 4 years. You're preaching to the choir. I don't think anyone in our department is under the impression that we're going to meet anyone through the department. To be honest, it's college, you're surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands of people on a daily basis, it's quite easy to meet new people, for friendships or otherwise.

 

[Pupil]

Right now, not only am I a woman in a field dominated by men, but I am an agnostic/atheist working in an office of christian fundamentalists and Young Earth Creationists. Believe me when I tell you that I don't look for social partners within my place of work.

Where do you work? Well, that may be a little too much information to give out to potential Evo-stalkers or whatever. But, what field/type of work are you doing? I'm curious because I haven't seen any field or workplace with a lot of Fundies (and I'm curious so I can stay the hell away from whatever type of work you're doing that's attracting so many Fundies ).

 

[OmCheeto]

I'm in Idaho

Ah! Well that explains it. Move to Portland. 99% of us are gay, or at least pretend to be. Chicks think it's hot you know.

You could always start a GLBT group. We have/had one where I work. I went to the first meeting and they said they wanted to go over the agenda. I was like, "Oh my God! The gay agenda! Can I see it? I've always heard about it, but have never actually seen it."

They were not amused with my humor...

But anyways, about the only thing the group was good for was to identify people who were gay. None of us had much of anything in common. There was one more meeting I think, and because no one had any issues with anything, there was nothing to talk about. End of club.

But I can understand about geeks and artists. I dated a poet for a week, and he posted a little poem on the internet about our "first night" together. Although flattered, I was like, "Is that what was going through your head that weekend?" The only thing running through my mind was "Oh, yea, mmmmm, oooooooo, ahhhhhh, baby o baby, whoo yah". He even corrected my English in the "middle" of it all; "Don't you mean may I **** **** *****?". I seriously doubt physics geeks think about frictional coefficients or inertia or fill and drain problems in the same situation. At least I don't.

I wouldn't worry too much about the sexual preference of people you hang around with. But I would be a bit more cautious when dealing with the hetero's. Apparently they are somewhat less trustworthy:

The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.

 

[Evo]

Where do you work? Well, that may be a little too much information to give out to potential Evo-stalkers or whatever. But, what field/type of work are you doing? I'm curious because I haven't seen any field or workplace with a lot of Fundies (and I'm curious so I can stay the hell away from whatever type of work you're doing that's attracting so many Fundies ).

Everyone in the office was hired by the same two people. I snuck in. My field is data networks, the people in this office do not appear to have much of a technical background. I was told I was hired because of my expertise to help raise the bar. Well, that didn't happen.

 

[Pupil]

Everyone in the office was hired by the same two people. I snuck in. My field is data networks, the people in this office do not appear to have much of a technical background. I was told I was hired because of my expertise to help raise the bar. Well, that didn't happen.

Hmph. From your earlier description I thought maybe without knowing what it was you got a job at the Discovery Institute.

 

[Moonbear]

I can understand wanting to find a partner with somewhat similar interests. Reading all the "girl trouble" threads around here, it's clear that regardless of sexual orientation, physics students and physicists (and others in the sciences) struggle with finding relationships with people who can appreciate the quirks of the field, such as that they might be sequestered in a lab all night or all week long in places where cell phone signals are shielded by the building design or location.

I don't know, does it matter a lot if you're grousing about not being able to find a boy instead of a girl?

Since you are at a university in a somewhat more conservative location, it's very possible that the isolation you feel is NOT because there aren't other people there who share your sexual orientation, but that they may be more reluctant to disclose that to others. And, even in more liberal locations, how often does sexual orientation come up in discussions of science? (Okay, except if you're talking to me, because I'm the resident reproductive biologist here, not a physicist, and sexual orientation IS a topic of scientific discussion in my field.) It's not that people aren't "out," just that there's no reason to discuss sexual orientation with coworkers. The only time I usually find out the sexual orientation of coworkers are at social gatherings where significant others are invited; but if they are unattached and don't bring along a significant other, even that isn't much of a clue.

What can help in not feeling isolated is recognizing that EVERYONE has SOMETHING about them that is unique or shared only by a small group. If everyone focused on that ONE trait and not on all the others that they DO have in common with others around them, we'd all be sequestered in our own isolated bubbles.

We have an interesting situation here, regarding the LGBT community. Because much of our student population comes from very rural parts of the state with very conservative values, what they struggle with is dealing with their sexuality when they return home. While on campus, they find a much safer, supportive environment, and can finally feel comfortable with dating the people they want to date, but back home, they face small, nosey communities with real prejudice and bigotry, and don't know how to break the news to their family, or bring home their significant other for the holidays, etc. It goes beyond them worrying about not being accepted, but worrying about the possibility of experiencing even physical violence.

So, I'm going to suggest you think about the same things I suggest heterosexual physicists think about when trying to find a date. What are your interests besides physics? What sort of personality appeals to you? Just because you had a bad experience with a music major doesn't mean you could never have a successful relationship with someone in another major, it just means that one person's personality didn't mesh with yours. Maybe you have no interest in the arts, so couldn't appreciate his passion anymore than you think he could appreciate your passion for physics, but that doesn't mean you need to find another scientist if you haven't met anyone of interest who is a scientist. What about a business major, or poli sci major, or psychology major? Or, perhaps you should look in directions based on something other than field of one's degree. What hobbies do you have?

And, as a last resort, hang out with me...when I start drooling while looking at a cute guy, there's a good chance he's gay.

 

[Moonbear]

You could always start a GLBT group. We have/had one where I work. I went to the first meeting and they said they wanted to go over the agenda. I was like, "Oh my God! The gay agenda! Can I see it? I've always heard about it, but have never actually seen it."

Did you make copies? It shouldn't just be the fundies who get to see what's on the agenda!

 

[Pengwuino]

Did you make copies? It shouldn't just be the fundies who get to see what's on the agenda!

I knew it! First its new member introductions at 12:30pm, next its lunch at 1pm, all culminating in pressuring our children to become homosexuals in school at 3pm!

 

[russ_watters]

Evo, is the job you're working out of choice or necessity? That sounds like a pretty horrible social situation...

Work is not a social situation. Besides, look at it from the other side: I'm an engineer and I work for a company that is ~90% male, including the administrative staff. If I were looking for someone to date from work, that would be a bad situation*, but I'm not. A huge fraction of people have working situations like that from one side or the other.

*Ironically, the month I started working there, I was matched up with one of the two female engineers in my department on eHarmony.

 

[turbo]

And, as a last resort, hang out with me...when I start drooling while looking at a cute guy, there's a good chance he's gay.

I was playing guitar in the student union one day not long after starting college, and a drop-dead gorgeous brunette plopped into the couch opposite me, and pretty soon, a very cute, petite blonde sat beside her, listening. I was thinking "Wow! Geeks CAN draw women at college." and then they started cuddling up to one another. My gay drama-major buddy showed up, and he got a wicked smirk on his face. When I stopped playing to talk to Tom, the ladies took off, and he busted a gut laughing at me - the brunette was the president of the Wilde-Stein club and the little blonde was her partner. Yep, 40 years ago the U of M had an on-campus social club for gays and lesbians, and he took great pleasure in dispelling my disbelief. For a young freshman from the piney woods, that kind of blindsided me.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Don't you mean may I **** **** *****?

Too much information.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

I can't think of anything sillier. Since when does a person's sexual preference have anything to do with a subject you are taking?

I'm unlocking this because some people think the OP isn't looking for people to hook up with.

I don't like people making it sound like gay people are some strange group of people that don't fit into society and that a person's sexual preference would somehow make that person think about something like science in a way that other "normal" people would not. I don't like the stigmatism that goes along with those lines of thought.

I can't imagine how it would matter if another scientist or student was gay, unless I was looking for someone to hook up with sexually, and this forum isn't for that.

Are you, or have you ever been, a supporter or contributer to some form of Women in Science/Engineering/CS, etc. movement/organization?

 

[AUMathTutor]

"Are you, or have you ever been, a supporter or contributer to some form of Women in Science/Engineering/CS, etc. movement/organization? "

Probably, which is why she decided to reopen the discussion. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that more women should get into CS...

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So many people seem to be thinking that its all about dating. I think what Adrian is talking about has more to do with mere companionship regardless of any romantic interest. While most people on this forum may be rather comfortable with alternative sexuality that does not seem to be the case with the general population. Even here in California I often run into people (mostly male and sometimes female) that have rather immature reactions to gays and lesbians. While Adrian may be capable of easy professional relationships he may find it difficult to have more personal friendships with the people in his department, worrying over how they may react if they were to find out that he is gay. Finding another gay student who understands his frustrations and lonliness would seem the best way to go but apparently his interests and major make it difficult for him to connect with them aswell.

It seems like a difficult spot to be in. Since he is in school his work is most likely to be on his mind most of the time, which is typical of college students, and he is unlikely to have much of a choice in where to look for friends if he has to spend most of his time immersed in his school work.

 

[adrian87]

I can understand wanting to find a partner with somewhat similar interests. Reading all the "girl trouble" threads around here, it's clear that regardless of sexual orientation, physics students and physicists (and others in the sciences) struggle with finding relationships with people who can appreciate the quirks of the field, such as that they might be sequestered in a lab all night or all week long in places where cell phone signals are shielded by the building design or location.

I don't know, does it matter a lot if you're grousing about not being able to find a boy instead of a girl?

Since you are at a university in a somewhat more conservative location, it's very possible that the isolation you feel is NOT because there aren't other people there who share your sexual orientation, but that they may be more reluctant to disclose that to others.

Funny how you're probably the first person who's posted something anything close to understanding the situation. My response:

1. While Idaho is conservative, Pocatello is a college town first - pretty relaxed/liberal. In fact, I was president of the LGBT club that we had on campus until it closed down because we didn't have much to do as a club and administrative duties weren't worth doing for a club of about 6 people that could just meet in private. In any case, my sexual preference is no secret at this point, nor has it been since my freshman year, though I don't necessarily go around proclaiming it with a poster in hand. If someone asks directly, or if they ask if I have a girlfriend or some such related question, I don't have a problem saying I'm gay, and yeah, I've dated guys.

2. We actually have a pretty good state-sponsored group called Genesis Project that functions as an HIV-prevention/sex education/support group for gay, bi, and curious men. There's a lot of opportunity, despite the location, for someone to come out. It was pretty scary when I did it my freshman year, but once I went through with it, I realized that no one really gave a sh*t (partly because I don't associate with too many mormons or catholics). Even the mormon guys can't hide it forever though, as I've found out. The homos in Pocatello are actually pretty good at finding out who else is gay in the community. We even have a few churches that are very supportive of the LGBT people here - you wouldn't believe how many lesbian couples have settled down here.

3. I'm not creating a huge artificial barrier where I'm only interested in geeky engineers/physicists. It's more that it would be nice to relate to someone who has a common identity, and has a strong interest in science whether or not they're going into that field. Also, though part of the reason for the break-up with my ex-boyfriend was divergent interests, there were many other emotional issues going on, and this was perhaps just one of the things that contributed to breaking the camel's back, so to speak.

4. I don't think the rarity of girls really can make the situation equal for straight guys in terms of romantic opportunity. If girls are rare, gay guys are even more rare in a physics/engineering department in this region. We do have one advantage though - the existence of 2+ gay people instantly creates opportunity for dating, as compared to 2+ straight guys in a department who require at least 1+ girl. Still, for the girl at least, there's typically going to be a pretty big potential dating pool of similarly interested men.

5. It seems a lot of people here are comparing their work environment to a university environment, which is absurd. Yep, office dating is probably a bad idea. But students dating students? At least to me, that makes sense. There aren't quite the same kind of problems if a break-up occurs, and there definitely aren't any school regulations about sex between students, as compared to a possible office policy. School *is* a social environment, whereas work *is not*. I wouldn't be looking to date someone at the IAC where I work, but finding another junior or senior, even graduate student who was going through a lot of the same crap I am with classes? Man, wouldn't it be nice to have someone there who actually does empathize because they've been through it or will be?

 

[Loren Booda]

My Yale alum magazine reports the Yale is considered to be "Gay Ivy," i.e., "most hospitable to gay students." (I would sometimes think there "Was that a homosexual or basher who just muttered 'gay'?")

Nevertheless, now I'm having a great time with my girlfriend and working for an "open" organization with a rainbow of personalities.

 

[adrian87]

My Yale alum magazine reports the Yale is considered to be "Gay Ivy," i.e., "most hospitable to gay students." (I would sometimes think there "Was that a homosexual or basher who just muttered 'gay'?")

Nevertheless, now I'm having a great time with my girlfriend and working for an "open" organization with a rainbow of personalities.

I'm not sure how a university could win the contest of "most hospitable to gays". Do they give them a separate bathroom for hook-ups? ;)

I would think the only important thing when it comes to hospitality is the attitude of the people on campus. It's fine to have a lot of people who aren't comfortable with LGBT people, as long as they're accepting of them and aren't actively protesting their existence (or right to be left alone in general). I think that's the case here in Idaho - most people aren't hot on the idea of imagining gay sex of their gender, but they don't have a problem with knowing a friend or two of theirs is gay.