Generalization of Surface Integral

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the generalization of surface integrals to higher dimensions, specifically how to express the differential area element dS in more than three dimensions. Participants explore the mathematical framework required for this generalization, including the use of Jacobians and parametrized manifolds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to generalize the surface integral \(\int\int f(x,y,z) dS\) into higher dimensions and seeks clarification on the nature of dS in this context.
  • Another participant suggests that the surface integral can be expressed using a parameterization \(\phi(u,v)\) and the Jacobian determinant, indicating that the cross product is a special case for three dimensions.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the relationship between the cross product and the Jacobian determinant, particularly in the context of a 2x3 matrix derived from the parameterization.
  • Further clarification is provided about the representation of the cross product as a determinant of a matrix, though the distinction between this and the Jacobian is noted as potentially different.
  • One participant introduces the concept of a k-dimensional parametrized manifold in R^n, providing a formal definition and discussing how to compute the volume of such a manifold using the Jacobian determinant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement on the concepts discussed, with some confusion remaining about the relationship between the cross product and the Jacobian determinant. The discussion does not reach a consensus on these points.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the mathematical details of the Jacobian and its application to the generalization of surface integrals. The discussion includes assumptions about the properties of the mappings and the nature of the matrices involved.

schaefera
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Given that a surface integral of a function, f(x,y,z), is written as \int\int f(x,y,z) dS where dS= |df/dx x df/dy| dA, how can this be generalized into more dimensions? In other words, is it possible to find a way to convert dS into a differential piece of area for more than 3 dimensions? What type of cross product would be able to incorporate the cross product of something differentiated with respect to three parameters, or four, or so on?
 
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Hi schaefera! :smile:

What you write is a bit ambiguous.

It should be something like:
\iint_S f(x,y,z) dS = \iint_S f(\phi(u,v)) ~ \left|\frac {\partial \phi} {\partial u} \times \frac {\partial \phi} {\partial v}\right| ~ du~dv
where \phi(u,v) is a function that maps (u,v) to points (x,y,z) on the surface S.

For n dimensions this is generalized using the absolute value of the Jacobian determinant.
Your cross product is a special case for 3 dimensions that happens to be the same.

See for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integration_by_substitution#Substitution_for_multiple_variables

The formula shown in the article is:
ad029d8d434531623748cfbb7310ee90.png
 
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Ok, I believe I understand that (although I have to admit it's a bit beyond what I have studied)! My one remaining question is: why is the cross product in the 3D version a special case of the Jacobian determinant? Because the parameterized function relies on two variables, wouldn't the Jacobian be a 2x3 matrix (the top row being the partials with respect to u and the second row being the partials with respect to v)? I'm obviously missing something, but how do you get the determinant of that?
 
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The cross product can be represented in many ways, as you can see on wikipedia.
One of them is as the determinant of a matrix:
09faa107cbce9b087e622f776ab7af8c.png
 
But isn't that different from taking a Jacobian and then finding the determinant of that matrix?
 
Ah, I see your point.
I guess I was hasty in answering your question with the Jacobian.

Well, in n dimensions, the cross product is generalized to:
d0e39f2c2f8b6e1eb8f24d720759df89.png


I guess you can use this to calculate the integral.
 
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There is a beautiful generalization. We will define something called a k-dimensional parametrized-manifold in R^n, that is analogous to say, a 2-dimensional parametrized-surface in R^3.

Here is the definition of a parametrized-manifold:

Let k <= n. Let A be open in R^k, and let g: A ---> R^n be a map of class C^r. The set Y = g(A), together with the map g, constitute what is called a parametrized-manifold of dimension k. We denote this parametrized-manifold by Y_g; and we define the k-dimensional volume of Y_g by the equation v(Y_g) = \int_A V(Dg), provided the integral exists.

Here, Dg is the derivative of g, and V(Dg) = \sqrt{det[Dg^{tr}Dg]}.

Note that if f is a continuous map from Y_g to R then the integral of f over Y_g, with respect to volume, is defined by \int_{Y_g} f dV = \int_A (f \circ g) V(Dg)

We use the notation dV in the integral to denote integral with respect to volumeEDIT: Also note that Dg^{tr}Dg [/tex[ is <b> always </b> a square matrix, so taking the determinant of it is never a problem.
 

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