Getting rid of fuel cell / flow battery membrane

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of eliminating the membrane in fuel cells or flow batteries by using magnetic fields to control ion flow. Participants explore theoretical approaches and implications of such a system, focusing on the underlying electrochemical processes and potential challenges.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using a magnetic field to selectively block ions from flowing in the "wrong" direction while allowing neutral molecules to pass through the electrolyte.
  • One example discussed involves allowing positively charged ions to flow from the negative half cell to the positive half cell, while negatively charged ions remain in the negative half cell.
  • Another participant points out the omission of proton and hydroxide redox half reactions, arguing that these reactions are essential for completing the electrical circuit and that the magnetic field may not be strong enough to overcome other forces acting on the ions.
  • There is a suggestion that different redox couples, such as S22-/S42- and Fe3+/Fe2+, might be more suitable for this discussion.
  • One participant questions the purpose of eliminating the membrane, seeking clarification on the benefits of such a system.
  • Another participant notes that ion exchange membranes can be a bottleneck in flow batteries, suggesting that a membraneless system could reduce complexity and improve efficiency.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the viability of using magnetic fields to control ion flow and the implications of removing membranes. There is no consensus on the effectiveness of the proposed methods or the practicality of the concepts discussed.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on the strength of the magnetic field compared to other forces acting on ions, as well as the need for a complete understanding of the electrochemical reactions involved.

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I am aware of laminar flow but would like to look for some other ways.
Is it possible to block ions from flowing in the "wrong" direction by applying a magnetic field to the electrolyte and let neutral molecules pass through?
 
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As an example (which probably won't work but other combinations may), a magnetic field is setup to allow positively charged ions to flow from negative half cell to positive half cell but not the other way round.
In the negative half cell, H2PO2- is oxidized to HPO32-, both ions are negatively charged thus won't flow to the positive half cell.
In the positive half cell, VO2+ is reduced to VO2+, both ions are positively charged thus won't flow to negative half cell.
 
You are leaving out the proton and hydroxide redox half reactions in your example, which complete the electrical circuit and generate movement of (at minimum) water between the electrodes. I don't think your proposed membrane-less scheme will work because the magnetic field strength is much weaker than other motive forces acting on the ions in solution.
 
Yeah, looks like one reaction is acidic while the other is basic. Perhaps S22-/S42-,Fe3+/Fe2+ is a better example?
How do you calculate other forces (diffusion?)?
 
Ion exchange membrane is often a bottleneck in flow batteries, a membraneless system can reduce complexity and improve efficiency.
 

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