Gorillas should be America's professional football players

[Jon_]

it seems ekrim is making a judgement upon your soul, oh my!

 

[Jordan Joab]

This is officially a sports bar discussion.

 

[chasely]

Athletes do make too much money, but only because people (a lot of people) are willing to go to the games and watch the events over TV. I grew up playing and watching sports, so I'll keep watching them until I die. I don't know why, but competition captivates a lot of people.

Professional sports also does a lot of community service for their surrounding areas. Perhaps the organizations don't put enough money back for what they make, but the athletes don't sit on their asses all day and roll around in their bathtub full of money.

 

[WarPhalange]

How to win at chess:

1.) anticipate your opponents move

2.) set the trap

That is exactly how you win at football.

By your logic Business is like Football. So are police STING operations. Politics. You name it.

I don't really care if you did or didn't like my analogy. The fact remains YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME OF FOOTBALL.

Or hold on, I think this one is better:

http://yunasville.com/PhotoBlog/albums/FeelingAngry/angry_baby1.highlight.jpg

So please just stop right now with the ignorance.

Okay.

What's funny is the fact that many of those 'poor kids living in the ghetto' happen to be some of the craziest die hard sports fans in the entire world.

They also happen to be extremely religious. It's because when you know your life is crap you turn to something else.

If you told those people that God was a scam and that sports were canceled forever, they'd have to go back to their crappy lives.

Let me guess, were you the fat kid who got lit up all of the time in dodge ball in grade school? It isn't surprising then that you hate sports.

I remember this thread... except the roles were switched...

No, in fact I LOVE dodgeball. I was the skinny kid who could move out of the way easily.

 

[WarPhalange]

As long as there are starving kids in the ghetto, why should anyone be rich through any means? Should all Nobel prize money be sent straight to the ghetto, along with stock dividends, doctor's salaries, and lawyer fees?

Now you're getting it.

Don't forget tax refunds.

 

[gravenewworld]

Really? That's how you win at chess? Why don't you stop with the ignorance? If you think one who knows nothing about football shouldn't talk about it, you should really stop talking about chess.



Which goes right along with the Rome analogy. Panem et circenses, right?

I'll give you a hint - enforce the belief in inner city kids that the only way out is to be a pro athlete, and *gasp* they want to be pro athletes! Many of those 'poor kids living in the ghetto' identify with athletes (and rappers, and wrongful convicts). Poor people also play the lottery; as long as we convince them to buy in, it's not really exploitation, is it?

Rome lasted what, 1500 years? You can cry about bread and games all you want.

I'll give you a hint--you are stereotyping, badly. Rather than blaming sports, why don't you point the finger at the real reason why some inner city kids look up to people like pro athletes--like extremely poor public education resources, unqualified teachers, and parents who simply don't care about their children's education. Sometimes the only thing poor kids have to look forward to are sports. Why don't you mention how many kids youth sports programs have saved by giving them something to do rather than hang out in the streets? Oh yeah, let's also ignore the fact that obesity is now a health epidemic not only among adults, but children as well. We should be spending even more money than we do now on sports.
I'm sure you like all of the new lab equipment and all of the scholarships at huge universities like Penn State, TX, etc. that come from the millions that are generated by their football programs. I'm sure you like all of the millions of dollars that the Greenbay Packers dump into their charities since they are a non for profit organization. Maybe if you actually had an open mind and did a cost benefit analysis you would see that the pros far outweigh the cons of placing value on sports.

 

[stickythighs]

Rome lasted what, 1500 years?

Rome lasted approximately 900 years. I am not correcting you to make a point about the merits or demerits of sports. I just don't like it when people are ignorant about history. I would correct you no matter what your opinion is on sports.

I'll give you a hint--you are stereotyping, badly. Rather than blaming sports, why don't you point the finger at the real reason why some inner city kids look up to people like pro athletes--like extremely poor public education resources, unqualified teachers, and parents who simply don't care about their children's education.

They can look up to anyone if they want to.

Why don't you mention how many kids youth sports programs have saved by giving them something to do rather than hang out in the streets?

The kids need to be working more instead of hanging out on the streets OR playing sports.

Oh yeah, let's also ignore the fact that obesity is now a health epidemic not only among adults, but children as well. We should be spending even more money than we do now on sports.

The obesity epidemic among kids is caused by kids' eating too much junk food, not a lack of sports.

I'm sure you like all of the new lab equipment and all of the scholarships at huge universities like Penn State, TX, etc. that come from the millions that are generated by their football programs. I'm sure you like all of the millions of dollars that the Greenbay Packers dump into their charities since they are a non for profit organization. Maybe if you actually had an open mind and did a cost benefit analysis you would see that the pros far outweigh the cons of placing value on sports.

I'm not saying football should be abolished. I just wish that we gorillas should be America's football players. Or have some gorillas compete with some humans.

I don't like professional athletes. I think they are greedy. I remember that baseball players went on strike in 1994, despite the fact that they are paid millions of dollars per year.

Shaquille O'Neal doesn't work nearly as hard as the five feet tall single mother with two kids and two jobs who can hardly pay the bills. Simply because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall, does that mean he's entitled to such an extravagantly comfortable lifestyle? It doesn't seem fair.

 

[K.J.Healey]

Those that are born with superior intelligence will, given the opportunity, usually end up doing what they want to in life (employment wise), because they can.
It would be idiotic not to take advantage of a system where you're rewarded for your abilities, whether its intellectual, physical, etc. Perhaps it IS luck whether you're born with some special abilities or traits, but so be it. What decisions did that 5' tall mother of two make that got her into that situation? She wasn't BORN into that role obviously. She could have done a number of things to make her life easier. Just as there are plenty of 7' tall people that don't become NBA stars.

You also said "kids need to be working instead of hanging out in the streets or playing sports" but generally speaking, when discussing role models, their influence is started much earlier than 14-15 (when they could start working).

 

[Jordan Joab]

Rome lasted approximately 900 years. I am not correcting you to make a point about the merits or demerits of sports. I just don't like it when people are ignorant about history. I would correct you no matter what your opinion is on sports.

They can look up to anyone if they want to.

The kids need to be working more instead of hanging out on the streets OR playing sports.

The obesity epidemic among kids is caused by kids' eating too much junk food, not a lack of sports.

I'm not saying football should be abolished. I just wish that we gorillas should be America's football players. Or have some gorillas compete with some humans.

I don't like professional athletes. I think they are greedy. I remember that baseball players went on strike in 1994, despite the fact that they are paid millions of dollars per year.

Shaquille O'Neal doesn't work nearly as hard as the five feet tall single mother with two kids and two jobs who can hardly pay the bills. Simply because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall, does that mean he's entitled to such an extravagantly comfortable lifestyle? It doesn't seem fair.

Woah now! Allow me to correct you, cowboy. You see, professional sports athletes do in fact work harder than the average American.

Let me use baseball as an example. Baseball players have to play 162 games a year + preseason + practice days + postseason (if qualified). They need to stay in shape, they also work just as much if not more hours as the avg American, and they need to compete at a very high level. These players must spend hours practicing, watching tapes, training, exercising, etc. It's roughly the same for every sport.

Those athletes earn their paychecks just like you do. Stop drinkin' that haterade.

 

[WarPhalange]

Woah now! Allow me to correct you, cowboy. You see, professional sports athletes do in fact work harder than the average American.

Let me use baseball as an example. Baseball players have to play 162 games a year + preseason + practice days + postseason (if qualified). They need to stay in shape, they also work just as much if not more hours as the avg American, and they need to compete at a very high level. These players must spend hours practicing, watching tapes, training, exercising, etc. It's roughly the same for every sport.

Those athletes earn their paychecks just like you do. Stop drinkin' that haterade.

Baseball is standing around for 4 hours at a time.

 

[Jordan Joab]

Baseball is standing around for 4 hours at a time.

If you think it's that easy why don't you become a pro baseball player?

War, question: do you watch/like/play any kind of sport? What do you do for fun if you don't mind me asking? Simple curiosity.

 

[rewebster]

make football, not war

 

[Crosson]

Shaquille O'Neal doesn't work nearly as hard as the five feet tall single mother with two kids and two jobs who can hardly pay the bills. Simply because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall, does that mean he's entitled to such an extravagantly comfortable lifestyle? It doesn't seem fair.

This directly reminds me of a philosophical argument from Robert Nozick about fairness (source: internet encyclopedia of philosophy):

Imagine a society in which the distribution of wealth fits a particular structure or pattern favored by a non-entitlement conception of justice - suppose, to keep things simple, that it is an equal distribution, and call it D1. Nozick's opponent must of course grant that this distribution is just, since Nozick has allowed the opponent himself to determine it. Now suppose that among the members of this society is Wilt Chamberlain, and that he has as a condition of his contract with his team that he will play only if each person coming to see the game puts twenty-five cents into a special box at the gate of the sports arena, the contents of which will go to him. Suppose further that over the course of the season, one million fans decide to pay the twenty-five cents to watch him play. The result will be a new distribution, D2, in which Chamberlain now has $250,000, much more than anyone else - a distribution which thereby breaks the original pattern established in D1. Now, is D2 just? Is Chamberlain entitled to his money? The answer to these questions, Nozick says, is clearly "Yes." For everyone in D1 was, by hypothesis, entitled to what he had; there is no injustice in the starting point that led up to D2. Moreover, everyone who gave up twenty-five cents in the transition from D1 to D2 did so voluntarily, and thus has no grounds for complaint; and those who did not want to pay to see Chamberlain play still have their twenty-five cents, so they have no grounds for complaint either. But then no one has any grounds for a complaint of injustice; and thus there is no injustice.

Why is there so much hate against professional athletes in this thread? I can only think that this comes from some kind of jealousy and/or a lack of understanding. For example, the sports haters all assume that being a pro athlete is a matter of genetic determinism. They know this because, presumably, they spent their adolescent years training 4+ hours a day but did not achieve satisfactory results. Anyone who has not spent years in the gym does not know anything about what it takes to become a pro athlete! These people have a much stronger willpower then I see in most physics students.

It's funny, to me chess is just a highly limited amusement game, like checkers or 'go fish', but sports like basketball, baseball, soccer, football, tennis, golf, and many more are worthy human challenges that have major mental components. Incidentally, even though Bowling is considered a pro sport, I find it more similar to chess and checkers.

Anyway, the people who are full of hate towards sports and athletes are clearly not very balanced, lacking the experience necessary to make the judgment. I say this because anyone who thinks gorillas can play football must never have even played the game even once (11 man teams, tackle rules). There is also a tone of ignorance about basic economics, e.g. "why don't we give these pro athlete salaries to kids in the ghetto?" Hopefully these people can now see that athletes generate economic value, and if they were not playing the sport then that value wouldn't exist to go to everyone. The most basic understanding should realize that economics is not a zero sum game, because there are advantages to trade!

Finally, I would like to say that it is much more difficult to justify the career and salary of a professional physicist or mathematician than it is to justify the salary of a pro athlete.

 

[gravenewworld]

Rome lasted approximately 900 years. I am not correcting you to make a point about the merits or demerits of sports. I just don't like it when people are ignorant about history. I would correct you no matter what your opinion is on sports.

Wrong. The eastern half of the Roman Empire didn't fall until the 15th century, which means technically the Roman empire lasted for well over 900 years (more like 1500+years). I thought you didn't like ignorance when it came to history? OMG I did actually pay attention in my course on Roman Civilization.

The obesity epidemic among kids is caused by kids' eating too much junk food, not a lack of sports.

Do you honestly believe this? Kids are fat because they are not only eating junk food, but also because they live more sedentary lifestyles. That's what happens when you cut out recess and gym classes in grade schools in order to fit more time into teach kids to pass standardized state exams.

 

[will.c]

Rome lasted what, 1500 years? You can cry about bread and games all you want.

I'll give you a hint--you are stereotyping, badly. Rather than blaming sports, why don't you point the finger at the real reason why some inner city kids look up to people like pro athletes--like extremely poor public education resources, unqualified teachers, and parents who simply don't care about their children's education. Sometimes the only thing poor kids have to look forward to are sports. Why don't you mention how many kids youth sports programs have saved by giving them something to do rather than hang out in the streets? Oh yeah, let's also ignore the fact that obesity is now a health epidemic not only among adults, but children as well. We should be spending even more money than we do now on sports.
I'm sure you like all of the new lab equipment and all of the scholarships at huge universities like Penn State, TX, etc. that come from the millions that are generated by their football programs. I'm sure you like all of the millions of dollars that the Greenbay Packers dump into their charities since they are a non for profit organization. Maybe if you actually had an open mind and did a cost benefit analysis you would see that the pros far outweigh the cons of placing value on sports.

I didn't go to Penn State or Texas. I did my undergrad at a university so keen to boost their athletics department that the university made illegal loans to them with no repayment plan, which took away from my scholarship and lab equipment - thankyouverymuch.

The Packers are a nonprofit organization - so that makes up for the wealth hoarding all over the place in all of professional sports? I agree that the problems with society are deeper, but I don't think sports fix everything like you seem to think. I don't think they make things worse, in general, either.

As regards obesity, I know several obese sports fans; it has nothing to do with the presence of professional sports in their lives - you can watch sports from a comfortable couch. I watch sports, but I keep myself fit and healthy because I developed the discipline needed to in an academic environment! In college I finally met people who earned my respect with their success instead of demanding it with a whistle (and telling me to keep my eye on the ball. If all you're going to teach me is platitudes, don't be surprised when I strike out - generalize to life lesson).

 

[grant9076]

This directly reminds me of a philosophical argument from Robert Nozick about fairness (source: internet encyclopedia of philosophy):



Why is there so much hate against professional athletes in this thread? I can only think that this comes from some kind of jealousy and/or a lack of understanding. For example, the sports haters all assume that being a pro athlete is a matter of genetic determinism. They know this because, presumably, they spent their adolescent years training 4+ hours a day but did not achieve satisfactory results. Anyone who has not spent years in the gym does not know anything about what it takes to become a pro athlete! These people have a much stronger willpower then I see in most physics students.

It's funny, to me chess is just a highly limited amusement game, like checkers or 'go fish', but sports like basketball, baseball, soccer, football, tennis, golf, and many more are worthy human challenges that have major mental components. Incidentally, even though Bowling is considered a pro sport, I find it more similar to chess and checkers.

Anyway, the people who are full of hate towards sports and athletes are clearly not very balanced, lacking the experience necessary to make the judgment. I say this because anyone who thinks gorillas can play football must never have even played the game even once (11 man teams, tackle rules). There is also a tone of ignorance about basic economics, e.g. "why don't we give these pro athlete salaries to kids in the ghetto?" Hopefully these people can now see that athletes generate economic value, and if they were not playing the sport then that value wouldn't exist to go to everyone. The most basic understanding should realize that economics is not a zero sum game, because there are advantages to trade!

Finally, I would like to say that it is much more difficult to justify the career and salary of a professional physicist or mathematician than it is to justify the salary of a pro athlete.

Well said. I am not a sports fan but I have played enough organized sports in the past to appreciate that there is a tremendous amount of discipline, focus, teamwork and work ethic involved in playing any team sport at a high level. These are qualities from which much of society can certainly learn a great deal. This also brings to mind a question:

Can any of the sports bashers here name a single professional level athlete who is not a hard worker?

 

[LowlyPion]

Can any of the sports bashers here name a single professional level athlete who is not a hard worker?

You mean besides Manny Rameriz?

 

[stickythighs]

I don't have much time. I'll just say that Shaq didn't acquire an income a hundred and fifty times more than the average American because he works a hundred and fifty times harder than the average American. He acquired a multi-million dollar income because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall.

Make Shaq a 5'1" guy like me, and he's the fry cook at McDonalds. It's the height that made the difference, not the work ethic.

 

[Jordan Joab]

You mean besides Manny Rameriz?

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=120903

That's how you measure Manny's work.

I don't have much time. I'll just say that Shaq didn't acquire an income a hundred and fifty times more than the average American because he works a hundred and fifty times harder than the average American. He acquired a multi-million dollar income because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall.

Make Shaq a 5'1" guy like me, and he's the fry cook at McDonalds. It's the height that made the difference, not the work ethic.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/allen_iverson/index.html - Allen Iverson, 6 feet tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugsy_bogues - Muggsy Bogues, 5'3'' tall former NBA player

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2007.html - Avg. height of NBA players. Notice the height has been going down

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shaquille_oneal/index.html - Shaq's numbers.

Side note: my boss just came by and started looking at numbers with me then told me not to do it again.

 

[LowlyPion]

I don't have much time. I'll just say that Shaq didn't acquire an income a hundred and fifty times more than the average American because he works a hundred and fifty times harder than the average American. He acquired a multi-million dollar income because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall.

Make Shaq a 5'1" guy like me, and he's the fry cook at McDonalds. It's the height that made the difference, not the work ethic.

It's not just genetics, even though basketball is to a certain extent dominated by freakishly tall individuals. Manute Bol for instance likely owed his ability to his 7'7" frame. But there are the Muggsy Bogues (5'3") and Spud Webb's (5'7") of the world that are more your height that have excelled.

 

[Oberst Villa]

I don't have much time. I'll just say that Shaq didn't acquire an income a hundred and fifty times more than the average American because he works a hundred and fifty times harder than the average American. He acquired a multi-million dollar income because he was born with genetics that would make him seven feet tall.

Make Shaq a 5'1" guy like me, and he's the fry cook at McDonalds. It's the height that made the difference, not the work ethic.

And what about Einstein ? Did that guy really work that much harder than me ? Or did mother nature provide him with some extra brain cells right from the start ? I don't know. The only thing I know is that complaining about it does not make much sense.

 

[LowlyPion]

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=120903

That's how you measure Manny's work.

$$ - Actually that's how you measure Manny's work.

 

[LowlyPion]

And what about Einstein ? Did that guy really work that much harder than me ? Or did mother nature provide him with some extra brain cells right from the start ? I don't know. The only thing I know is that complaining about it does not make much sense.

With Einstein maybe it was circumstance that brought him to prominence. Not that he wasn't bright or didn't apply himself or that he would have not worked harder than anyone else either - just that he came upon his insights as regards to the problems he was looking at predisposed through his experience to grasp them.

Would his mind born to an Australian aborigine living a life of walkabout subsistence have contributed at all to mathematics and physics?

 

[K.J.Healey]

Some people are born with an amazing ability for music, and some small fraction of those go on to make more than average salaries because of it.
Some people are born with above average height, and some VERY VERY SMALL fraction of those go on to make more than average salaries because of it.
Some people are born with above average intelligence, and some small fraction of those go on to make more than average salaries because of it.

Some people are born with above average INSERT HERE, and some SMALL FRACTION of those go on to make very large, above average salaries.

how about this one :
The top 100 jockeys earned between $2.8 and $22.2 million in 2004, or an average of $5.7 million.

I call UNFAIR! Why should they make so much money just for being short?

Sticky, you should think things through more. I feel like you argue with very little world experience or research into your ideas. (shortsighted)

 

[Daniel Y.]

Rather than blaming sports, why don't you point the finger at the real reason why some inner city kids look up to people like pro athletes--like extremely poor public education resources, unqualified teachers, and parents who simply don't care about their children's education.

We should be spending even more money than we do now on sports.

I don't believe poor public education resources, unqualified teachers, and bad parenting warrant more dollars being wasted on sporting events. I can tell you where those obscene paychecks sports athletes receive could go to, though (improving public education resources).

I'm sure you like all of the new lab equipment and all of the scholarships at huge universities like Penn State, TX, etc. that come from the millions that are generated by their football programs. I'm sure you like all of the millions of dollars that the Greenbay Packers dump into their charities since they are a non for profit organization. Maybe if you actually had an open mind and did a cost benefit analysis you would see that the pros far outweigh the cons of placing value on sports.

We do like all of those things! It's a good start (but it's just that - a start).

I would like to say that it is much more difficult to justify the career and salary of a professional physicist or mathematician than it is to justify the salary of a pro athlete.

Your argument was good up to this point. Do we seriously need to list off the contributions physicists or mathematicians have made to deserve their salaries? Unless a 4 million-dollar-a-year football player cures AIDS or does something remarkable to improve the human condition, he doesn't deserve such a salary. The same goes for every person: sports player, scientist, or otherwise.

Is ekrim going to get an infraction for insulting me?

He was quoting a movie called 'Billy Madison'. He isn't original enough to insult you properly. :P

I have serious doubts you could teach gorillas the intricacies of the 3-4 defense or how to run a proper Slugo route.

I really don't know what plays a gorilla could be taught. I do know if I put 11 gorillas, each capable of moving weight up to 2 tons, on the field they would tear through the human team like they were rag dolls.

 

[LowlyPion]

I really don't know what plays a gorilla could be taught. I do know if I put 11 gorillas, each capable of moving weight up to 2 tons, on the field they would tear through the human team like they were rag dolls.

You at least would need to teach them to have 7 at the line of scrimmage and not moving 1 second before snapping the ball. To organize themselves in position within 25 seconds. They would have to not be offside. No crackback blocking. No illegal use of the hands.

These are not exactly things that 3rd grade gorillas can necessarily pick up.

 

[WarPhalange]

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2007.html - Avg. height of NBA players. Notice the height has been going down

1) No, it hasn't been going down. There are plenty of years that have gone up and even surpassed the first years in that list.

2) If it has gone down, then it's only gone down by half an inch.

3) You're STILL at 6'7".

 

[Oberst Villa]

You at least would need to teach them to have 7 at the line of scrimmage and not moving 1 second before snapping the ball. To organize themselves in position within 25 seconds. They would have to not be offside. No crackback blocking. No illegal use of the hands.

These are not exactly things that 3rd grade gorillas can necessarily pick up.

hmm... maybe gorillas would suck as footballplayers, but they surely would be cool guerillas:

http://www.thekidalog.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/20/che_gorilla.jpg

 

[Daniel Y.]

You at least would need to teach them to have 7 at the line of scrimmage and not moving 1 second before snapping the ball. To organize themselves in position within 25 seconds. They would have to not be offside. No crackback blocking. No illegal use of the hands.

These are not exactly things that 3rd grade gorillas can necessarily pick up.

No doubt it would be hard to do. Do you think one could train the gorillas to play by these rules in, say, a year? I've seen gorillas do some pretty amazing things.

 

[LowlyPion]

No doubt it would be hard to do. Do you think one could train the gorillas to play by these rules in, say, a year? I've seen gorillas do some pretty amazing things.

I'd pay just to watch you get one dressed in an official football uniform with pads and helmet on.