Job Skills Got my BS in Physics but I don't know what to apply for

[grandpa2390]

I'm not really sure what I am a qualified for, and when I look on job boards like zip recruiter, the only jobs i seem to find are truck driving and sales jobs. the sales jobs are mostly for places like retail and those guys who stand at walmart and push communication and television services on people. I don't want to do that. or Insurance sales...

Im not sure what I should be looking for.
I don't know how to program, I only took an entry level course a few years ago. I was able to write MATLAB code for a class I took a year ago, so if the job requires simple code that gives me time to figure it out as I go. But I doubt I could do a job where software development is the real focus. Unless I can...

I'm just not sure what kind of jobs I should be looking for.
BS in Physics
AAS in Industrial Technology (concentration in PTEC)
entry-level programming skills. (Which I will hire a tutor to help me improve when I can affording it. Which won't be difficult if I can get just a decent paying job. by decent I mean 40k would be enough for me at this point in my life).

Job experience:
1. fast food and retail.
2. I've worked changing tires and batteries.
3. Tutoring
4. With my associate's degree, I did an internship a few years ago at Air Products and Chemicals shadowing the maintenance crew. in the beginning it was the machinists, but then I found that I fit in better with the preventative maintenance crew (I think?). We walked around the plant measuring the temperatures of all the equipment and recorded the data to make sure everything was running within spec. I fixed up their spreadsheets and everything. If the new CEO hadn't taken over and started laying people off, I might have gotten a job there before I even had a bachelor's degree.
5. Car Sales. But I hated that. I don't want to do any sales that requires the kind of tactics/strategy/whatever involved in car sales.
6. Phone/computer sales/technical support
7. Substitute Teaching.

It's not like I need a fortune 500 company position. I wouldn't mind working at a small company for less pay or whatever. I just don't know what kind of jobs I should be applying for. what keywords I should be typing into the search engines that will pull up results. what keywords I should be looking for in the job descriptions that tell me that it is a job I am qualified for.

Like engineering jobs... I don't know if I want to be an engineer, but I am not sure if I am even qualified. I don't know what an engineer truly does on a daily basis and how much of their job is learned... on the job. I'm certain the answer to that question depends on who you work for.

I live in the New Orleans Metro Area by the way, if that helps. the jobs that my associate degree qualified me for, my bachelor's degree has generally overqualified me for. a couple years back I interviewed for an off-shore position with Shell. But the interviewer felt that my going to school for a degree in physics overqualified me.
I also interviewed for my local police department and they suggested that I go apply for the FBI.
I don't want to work for the FBI. my gpa is below a 3.0 anyway and they want a 3.2

My gpa isn't fantastic anyway as I began to run into issues near the end of my school career that caused me to fail a couple courses.

I don't know. I feel like I have a broad range of skills, but they don't really fit anywhere. I don't feel like I am uniquely qualified for anything except sales positions that require broad knowledge and problem solving that don't require me to haggle over prices or find new clients/customers and convince them to buy. Someone needs a product and I figure out/educate them on what it is that they need and they buy it. If that makes sense. I'm a great salesperson in the way of retail. customers come into the store looking for something and I educate them on the different options and help them choose the one they need. And I don't have to negotiate the price or anything.

My uncle was telling me a while back that the company he worked for (no longer employed there) needed someone for sales but it was more along those lines. The job wasn't really about convincing people they need something they don't (like cable/satellite or a new car), it was more about helping the clients get all of the product that they needed.

I'm actually working on trying to be a teacher, but I'm trying to figure out what else I can do if that doesn't work out. I can't afford to go back to school for a Master's Degree unless I am making a decent wage.

tl;dr
I've finally graduated from college with my BS in Physics and I feel no better qualified for anymore jobs than the ones I qualified for when I graduated from High School. what kind of jobs should I be searching for?
I certainly feel like a more well-rounded and better-educated individual than I was when I finished high school, and so I do feel like I got out of university the least that I should have, but beyond that... it wasn't a trade school.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not really sure what I am a qualified for, and when I look on job boards like zip recruiter, the only jobs i seem to find are truck driving and sales jobs. the sales jobs are mostly for places like retail and those guys who stand at walmart and push communication and television services on people. I don't want to do that...

I read most of your post and skimmed the rest. I see a lot of "I don't want to do that", "what am I qualified for" and "what should I apply for", but except maybe for teaching, nothing about what you want to do.

So: What do you want to do with your life?

If you don't know, you need to put some real effort into figuring it out (ideally you would have put some thought into this 3 years ago, but water under the bridge at this point...). Otherwise you'll suddenly find yourself a way-overqualified 40 year old burger flipper.

 

[grandpa2390]

I read most of your post and skimmed the rest. I see a lot of "I don't want to do that", "what am I qualified for" and "what should I apply for", but except maybe for teaching, nothing about what you want to do.

So: What do you want to do with your life?

If you don't know, you need to put some real effort into figuring it out (ideally you would have put some thought into this 3 years ago, but water under the bridge at this point...). Otherwise you'll suddenly find yourself a way-overqualified 40 year old burger flipper.

Thanks for your response.
i've put serious thought into it for a long time. It's been 9 years, not 4. I've lived on my own, supported myself through two school degree programs since I was 19. and I've floated from different jobs to different jobs to try and find a "passion."
truth is that with the exception of teaching, I don't have a calling. That's why I majored in Physics.

Hopefully I'll get the job teaching and it will work out for me. If it doesn't, I just need an income. I don't need a large income, just a decent income. with the exception of the kind of sales jobs that I mentioned (car sales, phone sales, door-to-door sales), it doesn't really matter. And I'm only excluding that kind of work because I tried it and I'm not cut out for it.
I just need an income that I can survive on till I die. That's why I'm asking, what kind of jobs am I qualified for, not what kind of jobs I will enjoy. If I can find a decent job, then I can at least afford to go back to school for a Master's degree and devote my spare time to things I do enjoy.

edit: I won't be a 40 year old burger flipper. I'll just move up into retail management. but that's a last resort since that is something I could have done without a degree. I could probably be there now if I hadn't of gone to school. it's not that I lack ambition or am unmotivated or anything. I work hard. I just haven't found a job outside of education that calls to me.

 

[russ_watters]

Hopefully I'll get the job teaching and it will work out for me.

My understanding is that your odds of becoming a science teacher with a physics BS are pretty good, but others can speak better to that.

i've put serious thought into it for a long time. and I've floated from different jobs to different jobs to try and find a "passion."
truth is that with the exception of teaching, I don't have a calling. That's why I majored in Physics.
[snip]
If it doesn't, I just need an income. I don't need a large income, just a decent income. with the exception of the kind of sales jobs that I mentioned (car sales, phone sales, door-to-door sales), it doesn't really matter. And I'm only excluding that kind of work because I tried it and I'm not cut out for it.
I just need an income that I can survive on till I die. That's why I'm asking, what kind of jobs am I qualified for, not what kind of jobs I will enjoy. If I can find a decent job, then I can at least afford to go back to school for a Master's degree and devote my spare time to things I do enjoy.

edit: I won't be a 40 year old burger flipper. I'll just move up into retail management. but that's a last resort since that is something I could have done without a degree. I could probably be there now if I hadn't of gone to school.

Fair enough. There are a host of jobs out there that any random college degree qualifies a person for. The reality is that most people end up falling into some such job for the reason you describe; people work because they need the money. There are some semi-technical but not too specific jobs that you can probably get*. Technical sales is good - they generally train you and it isn't like being a car salesman. Facilities/plant/process engineering is another possibility. And yes, with any of these jobs if you do a good job you can get promoted.

*I'm an engineer, but when I was in college I worked as a temp. I did several random, mindless office jobs. I got several offers to make them permanent. Anyone who can handle a spreadsheet and learn some 30 year old dos based accounting package can excel at such a job.

 

[grandpa2390]

My understanding is that your odds of becoming a science teacher with a physics BS are pretty good, but others can speak better to that.

I think they are pretty good. my local school board has an alt cert program that will pay me to teach while i get certified. They need people so bad, he said he might need to hire me before the program starts. I should hear something hopefully tomorrow. but I'm more worried about whether I can handle the job. I know I could handle college level, but high school kids... I'm not sure. I'm going to have to try it for a couple of years and see if I can handle a classroom full of kids. It's not the easiest job in the world. : )
I might only be cut out for tutoring and teaching at the college level, but for that I will need an advanced degree.

Fair enough. There are a host of jobs out there that any random college degree qualifies a person for. The reality is that most people end up falling into some such job for the reason you describe; people work because they need the money. There are some semi-technical but not too specific jobs that you can probably get. Technical sales is good - they generally train you and it isn't like being a car salesman. Facilities/plant/process engineering is another possibility. And yes, with any of these jobs if you do a good job you can get promoted.

that's why I chose physics. it was the most "random college degree" in STEM. based on everything I had read, heard, spoken to advisors and grad students, it is the general studies degree of STEM. Giving a taste of math, hard science, engineering, etc. I only began to consider teaching Math/Physics later on in the program when I began tutoring/helping my friends/colleagues in the subject and in math.
I'm sure if teaching doesn't work out for me that there is something out there. It's just going to have to be something I fall into like you described.

As a technical sales engineer, you'll use your technical knowledge along with sales skills to provide advice and support on a range of products, for which a certain level of expertise is needed

technical sales sounds good. that sounds like the sort of keywords I'm looking for. I do enjoy sales. just not the kind of sales that I mentioned. and technical sales sounds like its right up my alley. especially if it is a product I'm interested in. :)

I've thought about process engineering. I've got process technician degree, and experience. My original goal when I graduate high school was to be a chemical (process) engineer. But I would have had to go to a private university or to a distant university to get that degree, and I just didn't have the resources.
It's just hard to find resources that give a clear idea of what these engineers actually do on a daily basis and whether I can do it. Is it the kind of job where you just need a degree to prove that you can do maths and have some background knowledge in science and problem-solving and you learn on the job to do the rest?

 

[gmax137]

process engineering -- maybe check with Entergy, theyre usually looking for people to work at their power plants. you might get in at Waterford-3 with a physics degree.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

A 2.8 GPA in Physics from most Louisiana schools is pretty underwhelming for a job candidate. (I am from New Orleans and graduated from LSU.) I tend to steer most students I mentor away from Louisiana universities, as their academic rigor has declined considerably over the past 30 years. Positive paths to employability are much more likely with GPAs above 3.5 with a BS in Physics from most Louisiana schools. Below a 3.0 screams mediocrity and is really a tough spot.

My advice? Use free (and inexpensive) online programs and learn to program on your own time. Create a few meaningful projects and release your source code to the public domain so you have it to point to on resumes and interviews. Until you improve your marketable skill set, your best chances are in the food, retail, hotel, and gaming industries. There are also programs to transition you into a high school science teacher.

 

[Locrian]

Given the Coast Guard any thought? What about other federal jobs?

 

[symbolipoint]

Until you improve your marketable skill set, your best chances are in the food, retail, hotel, and gaming industries. There are also programs to

My comment is going off-topic, but those businesses might tend to look for a pigeon-hole fit which might exclude many people such as any who spent time to earn a degree in Physics.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

My comment is going off-topic, but those businesses might tend to look for a pigeon-hole fit which might exclude many people such as any who spent time to earn a degree in Physics.

That's not my experience in New Orleans. Lots of folks in the service industries in New Orleans have degrees completely unrelated to their jobs. But if applying for a job where a Physics degree is a disadvantage, one can always leave it off the resume.

 

[symbolipoint]

A new educational culture needs to be formed for Physics major students to push them to develop marketable skills like in engineering and computer programming and other job skills so that people like grandpa2390 have some strong ideas of what they can do after they graduate as in finding a real job. This is not an new idea, is it?

 

[symbolipoint]

Doing some more thinking about this, a student needs to think about what kind of job he wants when he finishes a degree such as BS. Degree in Physics. To not do this kind of thinking nor search for information about it, is not very good. This might be more a problem of younger people choosing such a degree than of older, more experienced people choosing same degree. You need to have some idea what kind of job you want and make course choices that will help qualify you for such jobs. Otherwise, maybe get some vocational training or earn a vocational certificate. You want to have practical skills and useful knowledge so that you are hireable for something.

 

[gleem]

The American Institute of Physics has a list according to states of companies that recently hired a BS educated physics major..

See https://www.aip.org/statistics/whos-hiring-physics-bachelors

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The American Institute of Physics has a list according to states of companies that recently hired a BS educated physics major..

See https://www.aip.org/statistics/whos-hiring-physics-bachelors

Great resource. Thanks. Sending the link to several physics majors that I mentor. They all intend grad school currently, but plans sometimes change.

 

[gleem]

With over 8000 physics BS grads each year and with only about 40% going to grad school the rest have got to be going somewhere decent or I would have expected the bottom falling out of the number of undergrad physics majors.

 

[Locrian]

With over 8000 physics BS grads each year and with only about 40% going to grad school the rest have got to be going somewhere decent or I would have expected the bottom falling out of the number of undergrad physics majors.

I Disagree. People interested in a physics degree don't seem to care what happens after they get it (or at least don't do any significant research), so poor results don't feedback into fewer undergrad students. The low employability of the physics BS has been a regular discussion on this board for at least fourteen years, so it's not like it's a secret.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The low employability of the physics BS has been a regular discussion on this board for at least fourteen years, so it's not like it's a secret.

It's also not true. The unemployment rate of physics BS's is 10% below the average. While the average fluctuates, the trend is a constant. What is true is that some people have expectations that are unlikely to be met: we have someone here who was recently talking about $500K/year jobs as a reasonable expectation. We've had people who think a job is a reward - practically an entitlement - for a college degree. We have people who think that every aspect of a job has to be favorable. These are all issues. But "low employability" is not one.

 

[Locrian]

You're right - by low employability I meant poor employability. There are usually jobs, but getting good ones with a physics BS can be very challenging.

And I don't think that 500k/year was for a physics BS. That work required graduate education to qualify for.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't even think "poor" is correct. "Poorer than many expect", sure - but absolutely? I think not.

Recent physics BS's get paid, on average, above typical bachelor's degrees, and at least in the middle of STEM degrees:

The problem is a mismatch of expectations with reality: "I got my degree in physics with a lousy GPA from a lower-ranked university and didn't pick up any marketable skills. That graph says $70,000/year - where is my $70K/year job?" The reality is that most graduates in all fields get jobs in "industry" ("commerce" might be a better word) working for someone else, doing things that are not always completely enjoyable, for less money than they would like. This is not some sort of bug with universities or degrees. It's real life.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

It's also not true. The unemployment rate of physics BS's is 10% below the average. While the average fluctuates, the trend is a constant. What is true is that some people have expectations that are unlikely to be met: we have someone here who was recently talking about $500K/year jobs as a reasonable expectation. We've had people who think a job is a reward - practically an entitlement - for a college degree. We have people who think that every aspect of a job has to be favorable. These are all issues. But "low employability" is not one.

I think the real issue is unrealistic expectations of mediocre graduates rather than low employability. Perusing the marketing materials of several second and third tier physics departments shows how they are fostering these unrealistic expectations with statements such as:

The study of physics is a good choice for students desiring positions in industry that are on the cutting edge of engineering and science. For example, physics researchers are using lasers to detect biological and chemical agents, analyzing cell-based communications to learn how heart disease occurs, and testing pigments to authenticate works of art. This science is a keystone of technological progress; it also underlies all of engineering, and it is a useful second major for those pursuing degrees in mathematics, electrical or mechanical engineering technology. All of our physics students receive job offers that put them in the front lines of fascinating careers and maximize their earnings potential. (Quote from third tier physics program in Georgia).

... physics underlies all natural phenomena and man-made technologies. That makes it the most versatile science when it comes to careers: your degree in physics opens you up to a huge array of job opportunities across all technical disciplines. (Quote from third tier physics program in Louisiana).

I really doubt that all the physics graduates with 2.x GPAs are really receiving "job offers that put them on the front lines of fascinating careers and maximize their earnings potential." This blather is just plain dishonest. We ALL need to be more honest and straightforward in informing physics majors that a 2.x GPA from most 2nd and 3rd tier schools is a path to underemployment, disappointment, and frustration unless a student takes ownership of building a marketable skill set early in their college years and has lots on their resume to catch employers' attention and get them to the interview stage of the hiring process.

Hiring managers are not fooled. They know that a 2.x GPA in a lower tier program means most students were not required to work very hard. They know that without other tangible accomplishments a mediocre GPA indicates a mediocre work ethic and dubious skill set. They know about grade inflation and grade gifting. And they know how expensive it is to either fix or replace mediocre employees.

I think most faculty would do well to have a peek at their departmental web page promises and consider whether their own institutions are exaggerating the employment and earnings potential of their physics majors, especially graduates with 2.x GPAs. Departments and faculty tend to focus on students who do well (good jobs and/or good graduate schools) and I also often see lists of impressive companies and grad schools on department marketing pages. But an honest discussion of near term opportunities for graduates closer to the mean is rare.

 

[gleem]

The AIP also has a study on physics BS grads employability

https://www.aip.org/sites/default/files/statistics/employment/bachinitemp-p-14.1.pdf

It is 4 years old but shows only 10% part time or not employed shortly after graduation. Another study followed up on them one year after graduation.

https://www.aip.org/sites/default/files/statistics/employment/bach1yrafterdeg-p-14.1.pdf

I do not remember when the STEM campaign became wide spread in secondary education but when it did it most certainly scooped up the many who where ill prepared or luke warm to the profession just looking for the reward of a job. This is evidenced by the large dropout rate in college.

This article https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/report/sizing-up-the-gap-in-our-supply-of-stem-workers/ looks at the number of STEM job for each unemployed STEM worker in the years from 2010 to 2016. If you believe the data there is no excuse for a competent and well prepared student not finding a suitable job particularly if you are willing to relocate, adjust your employment goals, or start at the bottom.

Clearly at least to me some students tough out the BS degree who are not particularly suited for the challenges or are disillusioned by their false expectations of a guaranteed job as Vanadium 50 pointed out.

The internet is rife with information about careers and qualifications that it seems by the end of the junior year one should have a reasonable idea of where they might be going after graduation giving them some time to cement/or adjust that plan. Universities could also provide better services or even courses/seminars on current and future opportunities and skills required. But still one should accept responsibility for their own future.

It is sad that a person upon graduation asks "What do I do now?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

If you believe the data there is no excuse for a competent and well prepared student not finding a suitable job particularly if you are willing to relocate, adjust your employment goals, or start at the bottom.

This is certainly true, but let's unpack it and list the requirements for employment in addition to the STEM degree:

-competent
-well prepared
-willing to relocate
-willing to adjust employment goals
-willing to start at the bottom

One of the things I find counterproductive is how many adults that students interact with through their college years allow them to continue with unrealistic self-assessments, especially regarding what it means to be competent and well-prepared. A close circle of friends and colleagues of mine has regular contact with students nearing graduation. Regardless of their GPA and actual abilities, they almost all see themselves as competent and well-prepared. Some are, but many are not. Reviewing things as simple as a prospective resume or cover letter relating to a job application reveals how incompetent and unprepared these students are. Reviewing things more involved like a technical report or presentation for a project-based course is even more revealing.

 

[Locrian]

My opinion of the physics BS has historically been moderately negative, but digging into the info Vanadium and gleem have posted, I think my stance needs a review.

 

[StatGuy2000]

This is certainly true, but let's unpack it and list the requirements for employment in addition to the STEM degree:

-competent
-well prepared
-willing to relocate
-willing to adjust employment goals
-willing to start at the bottom

One of the things I find counterproductive is how many adults that students interact with through their college years allow them to continue with unrealistic self-assessments, especially regarding what it means to be competent and well-prepared. A close circle of friends and colleagues of mine has regular contact with students nearing graduation. Regardless of their GPA and actual abilities, they almost all see themselves as competent and well-prepared. Some are, but many are not. Reviewing things as simple as a prospective resume or cover letter relating to a job application reveals how incompetent and unprepared these students are. Reviewing things more involved like a technical report or presentation for a project-based course is even more revealing.

If you and your friends and colleagues are seeing that many physics graduates are neither competent or well-prepared for employment, then this should raise concerns about the overall quality of the education being provided by these students. Yes, the students do bare considerable responsibility, but wouldn't you argue that the colleges/universities bare significant responsibility in not doing a better job of providing opportunities so that the students will become better prepared?

 

[Vanadium 50]

While I agree that people with a low GPA from a "third tier" school who major in physics will have a harder time of it, I would argue that a person with a low GPA from a third-tier school will also have a harder time of it had they majored in something else. I would guess - and this is a guess - a 2.4 GPA in physics probably leaves its owner less badly off than a 2.4 in Art History, or what I believe you have previously called "Grievance Studies".

 

[Dr. Courtney]

While I agree that people with a low GPA from a "third tier" school who major in physics will have a harder time of it, I would argue that a person with a low GPA from a third-tier school will also have a harder time of it had they majored in something else. I would guess - and this is a guess - a 2.4 GPA in physics probably leaves its owner less badly off than a 2.4 in Art History, or what I believe you have previously called "Grievance Studies".

Absolutely. But most given GPAs in the 2.x range in physics don't leave the graduate in as good an employment position as the same GPA in an ACS approved chemistry program or an ABET accredited engineering program.

 

[pi-r8]

While I agree that people with a low GPA from a "third tier" school who major in physics will have a harder time of it, I would argue that a person with a low GPA from a third-tier school will also have a harder time of it had they majored in something else. I would guess - and this is a guess - a 2.4 GPA in physics probably leaves its owner less badly off than a 2.4 in Art History, or what I believe you have previously called "Grievance Studies".

I don't think it's fair to compare students from different majors like that. Physics students consistently have some of the highest SAT scores of any major, and (in my experience) they tend to be much stronger students than average. This is especially true at low prestige schools where a lot of students will be struggling to pass math classes that are at the level of remedial middle and high school math, while the physics majors have to learn things like partial differential equations as just part of one class. It's like a whole different university.

To make a broad generalization- physics tends to attract students who are smart and diligent, but naive. So they study hard and pass a lot of difficult classes, then get a tough reality shock when they have to apply for non-academic jobs. The professors are like that too so they're not too good at mentoring students who aren't planning to become physics professors. The new graduates struggle because they have no practical experience or training, but do end up OK eventually just because of their natural gifts, and that's reflected in the graph you posted where the physics majors have a huge salary range compared to most of the others. (Math majors also have a huge range, since that seems to be pretty similar to the physics major in a lot of ways)

The OP of this thread has a lot more work experience than the average new graduate, so I'm kinda surprised he'd make a thread like this. But I guess it's just hard for everyone. My advice for him is to go into teaching high school physics, since he expressed an interest in teaching and there does seem to be jobs open for that (as long as you're willing to move). He could also look for data analyst jobs, which are pretty broad and hire people with a lot of different backgrounds as long as they can read spreadsheets.

 

[Zap]

Do you really think GPA matters that much? I don't think a high GPA from a third tier school in physics is going to be much different than a low one, unless you want to go to graduate school. What probably matters more is your ability to network your way into an internship, like at LANL or Raytheon. You'll have it made after that. I guess LANL and Raytheon have GPA requirements ... but, internships and experience are still more important.

The last time I checked, the GPA requirement for LANL is 3.2, so it's not like amazing. That is mediocre in physics, at best. At Raytheon, I think it is a 3.5, which is good. Anything lower than a 3.0 is pretty crappy, and I think you'll have trouble finding work with any degree.

But I graduated with a 3.66, and I am pretty much in the same position. I wanted to work for the government and make bombs, but it has been difficult to get into it. I would move to the middle of nowhere and make bombs, but I still don't get an interview. I am still trying. The data analyst stuff is a good bet. There are tons of those jobs. It seems pretty cool, too. Technical sales is a job. Pharmaceutical sales is another. I don't know what else you can do with a physics degree. Becoming an engineer is pretty tough, but might be possible. How could you apply your physics degree to engineering?

It is sad that a person upon graduation asks "What do I do now?

I think many of us believe and are told that things will work themselves out as long as we go to school and get good grades. I think many of us also think that we will have our choice of job offers after graduation. I also think many of us took out loans irresponsibly thinking we could pay them off with a good job afterwards. We ask our professors, "what can I do with x degree in some weird theoretical stuff?" They respond with "Whatever you want!" We see motivational posters telling us that you will succeed in x degree. Why study x degree? Become a problem solver! Whatever that is! We have everyone telling us, "Wow, you are such a good student. You are going to be successful." We convince ourselves that good student is synonymous with success and turn a blind eye to the fact that we're being robbed by financial aid services, because it feels good to be "successful." It feels good to be told that you're smart and the world is your oyster. When graduation nears and we finally start looking for jobs, we find out that none of our classes are directly applicable for the positions that we're applying for, but we apply anyway, because we are a fresh grad, and we think we are a hot commodity. After some time, we make a post similar to OPs and wallow in despair. Eventually, I suppose we have to settle for something, anything?

The school needs to focus more on providing at least an awareness of real job opportunities and resources to get started in those jobs to their students. I don't think it is sustainable the way it currently is. People may not want to attend university anymore. I think it has already lost a lot of respect and prestige. I actually paid a thousand dollars for a class that was suppose to be about preparing for graduation, and it was total nonsense. They are money grubbers and money dumpers foremost. The students come after, in last place.

 

[Natuurfenomeen22]

The school needs to focus more on providing at least an awareness of real job opportunities and resources to get started in those jobs to their students. I don't think it is sustainable the way it currently is. People may not want to attend university anymore. I think it has already lost a lot of respect and prestige. I actually paid a thousand dollars for a class that was suppose to be about preparing for graduation, and it was total nonsense. They are money grubbers and money dumpers foremost. The students come after, in last place.

This is very important, so if available also check job markets that may be hosted in your area. Also there may be a great variety of retraining programs such as the one offered to become a teacher, but than in areas like data science, programming etc.
The best thing is for people to realize before starting any bsc programme what skills are useful in general and work from there into the more specific stuff whilst maintaining the general skills.

Be glad you didn't become a biologist ;)
Nobody really loves us :P

 

[russ_watters]

I think many of us believe and are told that things will work themselves out as long as we go to school and get good grades. I think many of us also think that we will have our choice of job offers after graduation.[emphasis added]

I would hope that advice actually starts with "If you put serious thought and effort into your plan...".

Success is as near a certainty as life can offer for people who put serious thought and effort into making their future happen with an STEM degree. But when people who wait for their future to happen for them or focus on an extremely narrow and limited field, odds of success are markedly lower. As far as I know, companies don't ever cold-call recent or near grads to offer them jobs unsolicited.

You have to decide what job you want, prepare for it, and then go after it. Or failing that be willing to cast a wide net in a wide field (as I did).

The school needs to focus more on providing at least an awareness of real job opportunities and resources to get started in those jobs to their students... They are money grubbers and money dumpers foremost. The students come after, in last place.

I agree that this is a problem, but I'm not sure it is a solvable one -- or, rather, it's one the students always have the responsibility to solve themselves. With the exception of statistical data which may not be faked, everything else is salesmanship. Colleges don't really have an obligation to provide students with anything other than an education; "Graduate from here and you'll be a competent physicist". That's what they actually have to sell. And people who are selling things - anything - will embellish the truth to make the sale.

By age 18, a person should recognize salesmanship puffery and should understand that the "Whatever you want!" answer is nonsense and has been since they first heard it at age 4. E.G., if they follow-up with "You could even be an astronaut and fly into space!" it could be true, but without the caveat that only 1 out of their million graduates in the last 50 years has actually accomplished it, it may give a rosier picture than is the reality. But again, adults should be capable of recognizing puffery and judging their own opportunities from salesmanship.

 

[Natuurfenomeen22]

By age 18, a person should recognize salesmanship puffery and should understand that the "Whatever you want!"

They should have had the opportunity to know this at the very least, sadly I am not sure how realistic that is in the current climate...
Especially if you consider some of last years scandals in the so-named professional environments (Facebook for instance)

In any case I agree with the generality in your post!

 

[symbolipoint]

By age 18, a person should recognize salesmanship puffery and should understand that the "Whatever you want!"

Way too often, they don't recognize this, the age of 18 still being too young for some students. Some people's family members are not much better at informing them either. A student needs a informative, experienced community to help them make some decisions. Kid going to school is just not enough. Kid choosing something like some science "major" is just not enough.

 

[russ_watters]

Way too often, they don't recognize this, the age of 18 still being too young for some students. Some people's family members are not much better at informing them either.

Yes, family is where I think the responsibility lies. At 18 parents can no longer apply direct force, but they can still provide advice and significant strategic pressure (as mine did).

 

[symbolipoint]

Yes, family is where I think the responsibility lies. At 18 parents can no longer apply direct force, but they can still provide advice and significant strategic pressure (as mine did).

What is also really bad, is that further when a student chooses something in a physical science, after having some difficult academic experiences, student becomes afraid of some material from certain courses, is not sure what to do with some advice from counselors and professors, and then makes inadequate educational decisions for further courses or opportunities and by doing so, limits his knowledge and skills; which just makes getting good jobs later, more difficult.

 

[Zap]

I was a bit cynical in my last post. I think a physics degree is pretty good for working as a civilian for the department of defense. You just have to know what you want to be doing, like previously mentioned. It's also pretty good for a lot of different stuff. You just need to acquire some skills related to what you want to do and then you can get there with your physics degree. Right now, I am talking to people in data analytics and the department of defense. It's hard to get into the national labs, but that is also possible. I am talking to someone from one of those, too. I guess you just have to keep trying and try to keep a positive attitude.

When I was 18, I didn't know my arse from my elbow. In all honesty, I was a complete and utter diaper baby. I wasn't coddled by my parents. My parents were relatively strict, but I was definitely sheltered from the world and had no idea what I was doing. I can blame a lot of my problems on my parents. They weren't really active in my life and took a back seat to it. I sometimes think that my birth wasn't planned. I am a twin and have an older brother. So, if you can imagine accidentally getting pregnant with twins. That might make you resent them. They didn't have a lot of money when me and my twin were born. Now, they were stuck with taking care of three kids. I am almost certain that my father resented me because of that. I barely have a relationship with him or my mother. I never felt close to them. I hardly ever talk to them. But that is something I should discuss with them at a later time. However, I am also responsible for my own actions. A physics degree really isn't that bad, if you think about it. It's a decent degree, and it can get you to many places, depending on where you decide to go. Unfortunately, I still have a lot of growing up to do, even though I'm almost 30 ... I wonder about this a lot. I plan on discussing it with my parents soon, and I have to forgive them and become an adult. I believe I am on my way. It is better late than never, I suppose.

Additionally, my parents never seemed to have their act together. My father has a PhD in microbiology and was unemployed for most of my memory. My mother had a bachelor's degree in biology but switched from job to job in unrelated things, even working at Walmart for a significant period of time. I don't know why they would always push school on me. It didn't seem to work out for them. I don't know why they thought it would work out for me. To this day, my father pushes me to get a PhD. For what? To be unemployed? I don't get it. Sometimes, you find yourself in a soup with a perfect recipe for disaster, but I didn't do half bad, considering that.

 

[Zap]

I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after. I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end. When I ask them about their goals, they usually don't have any besides passing dissertation or some really vague concept of some job in what they call "the industry." This, among other things, made me absolutely despise graduate school and believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged. I understand how painful a PhD can be, and I respect the fact that anyone with a PhD has gone through hell and back. However, I don't understand their motive behind it, unless it is because they are from a third world country.

I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”

 

[Vanadium 50]

believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged

I know you have had some difficult times, but there is no need to write nonsense like this.

 

[symbolipoint]

I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after.

Understandable, and very common. Students change their major field a few times before settling on something.

I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end.

Not credible, because applying to a PhD program needs so many lengthy qualifications and then being decisive about what you will do in the PhD program. High grades, earning letters of recommendation, deciding what particular area to study, finding official advisers, knowing why you want some PhD program and activity and explaining it clearly in writing. If any forum members who were in PhD programs had "absolutely no idea why you were there", tell us now.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Not credible, because applying to a PhD program needs so many lengthy qualifications and then being decisive about what you will do in the PhD program. High grades, earning letters of recommendation, deciding what particular area to study, finding official advisers, knowing why you want some PhD program and activity and explaining it clearly in writing. If any forum members who were in PhD programs had "absolutely no idea why you were there", tell us now.

This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.

 

[Natuurfenomeen22]

This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.

Broadly speaking, some PhD's are in for it because of the experience or the fact that there are simply grants for it.

Most of the PhD's I have met are very much putting effort into it and seem to have a plan, but not all have this quality ;)

Getting into a PhD is not easy either, not in my experience at least.

So to the OP, just see what skills you might be missing and work from there.

 

[symbolipoint]

This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.

Broadly speaking, some PhD's are in for it because of the experience or the fact that there are simply grants for it.

Most of the PhD's I have met are very much putting effort into it and seem to have a plan, but not all have this quality ;)

Getting into a PhD is not easy either, not in my experience at least.

So to the OP, just see what skills you might be missing and work from there.

Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?

 

[gleem]

I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”

You haven't been the only one. An AIP survey tells us that in 2017 there were about 8300 BS awarded yet there were over 14000 physics seniors nearly the same as a survey in 2015. This pattern goes back many years. So it would seem that quite a few changed their minds.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?

Few lower tier programs have a hard cut-off on the PGRE and GRE scores, so there really is no failing grade on these. And I've written my share of luke warm recommendation letters and read my share of uninspired personal letters/statements of intent. Yet if they have at least a 3.0 GPA, all these students have gotten in somewhere. So, the suggestion that some level of quality is actually required for admissions to these lower tier programs is inaccurate. The only firm requirement of these lower tier programs is the undergraduate GPA, and with grade inflation and grade gifting these days, a 3.0 GPA in many undergraduate physics programs is not much of an indication of quality. Sure, there are some platitudes and purported convictions and motivations in the statements of intent, but there is no reliable mechanism for admitting institutions to discern which are true expressions of long-held convictions, and which are hastily thrown together the night before the applications are submitted.

 

[Natuurfenomeen22]

Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?

Like Dr. Courtney also said, basically GPA and other basic qualifiers, which should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've seen multiple times where people are really good at taking tests, but not much else.

Anyway, we seem to digress a little. Most PhD students are above 90% of the students IMHO and thus very capable.

 

[gleem]

Most PhD students are above 90% of the students IMHO and thus very capable.

Getting back to those AIP surveys, there are about 8400 BS degrees conferred each year. Of those about 3300 are admitted to grad school.or 40% of BS grads. So you have to be dipping down into the B range. Being a B student doesn't mean that you are not capable.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Of those about 3300 are admitted to grad school

The other relevant number is something like 6000 people take the Physics GRE. So one can conclude that about twice as many (a wee bit less) people who want to go to graduate school (at least badly enough to pay a few hundred bucks for the GRE) as actually get in.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The other relevant number is something like 6000 people take the Physics GRE. So one can conclude that about twice as many (a wee bit less) people who want to go to graduate school (at least badly enough to pay a few hundred bucks for the GRE) as actually get in.

I'm not sure how big a piece of the pie it is, but I do know I tend to recommend students take the PGRE (and often other grad school admissions tests like the MCAT or LSAT as applicable) as they are knocking on doors and testing the waters regarding next steps after graduation. So I would not conclude that taking the PGRE indicates a firm intent to attend graduate school. Also, there may be some number of students who are admitted to grad school but then don't go for various reasons, including:
1. Insufficient scholarship, assistantship, or fellowship money. I tend to recommend students not accept admissions offers in physics grad programs that require taking on additional debt. If there is not enough money to keep the ship afloat, better to pass in most cases.
2. Family needs. A pregnancy, marriage, or other family need (or desire) often leads students to re-evaluate priorities between taking the PGRE and accepting an admissions offer to grad school.
3. More appealing opportunity. Perhaps a job or grad school in a different area (medicine, law, other science or engineering).

I think most physics majors with decent GPAs SHOULD take the PGRE as part of evaluating possible paths after graduation. Waiting until they have firmly decided to go to graduate school is rather late, because it often only gives them one chance to take it, and it also leaves too little time to consider and prepare for other options if the PGRE score suggests the student is not a good fit for grad school.

Overall, I think the "path preparation" discussions and consideration should usually be happening as early in the college years as they tend to do in the high school years. We don't wait until most students are in the 11th or 12th grade to begin discussing whether they want to go to college, which colleges they should consider, and what they may want to major in. (In fact, I tend to recommend a first try of the ACT in 9th grade to improve these discussions and preparations.) By their third semester in college, I am talking to science majors about paths after graduation, and if grad school is part of the possibilities, I am asking, "When do you plan to take the GRE?"

 

[Zap]

I can only speak from my experiences, which have not been inspiring when talking with PhD students or professors. Though, I do attend a lower tier school. I'm sure if you went to MIT or even some place like ASU, things might be different.

 

[grandpa2390]

A 2.8 GPA in Physics from most Louisiana schools is pretty underwhelming for a job candidate. (I am from New Orleans and graduated from LSU.) I tend to steer most students I mentor away from Louisiana universities, as their academic rigor has declined considerably over the past 30 years. Positive paths to employability are much more likely with GPAs above 3.5 with a BS in Physics from most Louisiana schools. Below a 3.0 screams mediocrity and is really a tough spot.

My advice? Use free (and inexpensive) online programs and learn to program on your own time. Create a few meaningful projects and release your source code to the public domain so you have it to point to on resumes and interviews. Until you improve your marketable skill set, your best chances are in the food, retail, hotel, and gaming industries. There are also programs to transition you into a high school science teacher.

I didn't go to LSU. My understanding is that it is an easier school, but I doubt my gpa would be a 3.5. I'd most definitely have a 3.0 from my own school if not for unfortunate events... had I been able to go to LSU, I would have done ChemEng
I spent a couple of semesters in a rough spot. I took classes that I shouldn't have taken. Took courses when I should have taken the semester off. I have to live with that. I trudged on. I wasn't going to dropout and quit. I decided my degree might be worthless, but I was going to have it at least.

That's the past, I accept my choices, I did what I could with the resources I had. Now I'm trying to figure out where to go next. What to do next. I don't want to go to grad school, I can't afford it. And it wouldn't open anymore doors for me anyway.

I'm looking at programming languages to learn. Javascript seems to be most popular?

I think the real issue is unrealistic expectations of mediocre graduates rather than low employability. Perusing the marketing materials of several second and third tier physics departments shows how they are fostering these unrealistic expectations with statements such as:

that's common for every university/college and their programs. They all tout how their programs, from AC Techs to Physicists have huge marketability... then you get online and see that the majority of people can't find work. it's just part of the system.

 

[grandpa2390]

Doing some more thinking about this, a student needs to think about what kind of job he wants when he finishes a degree such as BS. Degree in Physics. To not do this kind of thinking nor search for information about it, is not very good. This might be more a problem of younger people choosing such a degree than of older, more experienced people choosing same degree. You need to have some idea what kind of job you want and make course choices that will help qualify you for such jobs. Otherwise, maybe get some vocational training or earn a vocational certificate. You want to have practical skills and useful knowledge so that you are hireable for something.

Thought about it for 8 years as I worked on my degree. Couldn't, and can't, figure out what I'm going to do. Right now, I'm looking into education. It's the only thing that's ever appealed to me.