Gravitational Lensing of Fast Receding Galaxies: Does Speed of Light Matter?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the gravitational lensing effects of galaxies that are receding at high velocities, particularly in relation to the concept of relativistic mass and its implications for gravitational interactions. Participants explore theoretical aspects, assumptions about gravitational lensing, and the relationship between velocity and gravitational effects, with references to specific papers and concepts in general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that as a galaxy's recessional velocity increases, its gravitational lensing effect also increases, based on the idea of relativistic mass.
  • Another participant challenges the use of the concept of relativistic mass, stating it is outdated and does not accurately describe gravitational interactions in general relativity.
  • A participant questions why the concept of relativistic mass is no longer commonly used, indicating that it leads to misunderstandings about gravity.
  • Further clarification is provided that the stress-energy tensor in general relativity is the relevant framework for understanding gravity, rather than the concept of relativistic mass.
  • One participant references a paper that discusses the effects of a moving body on a stationary dust field, suggesting that the relativistic effects may not directly apply to gravitational lensing but could be analogous.
  • There is mention of specific terms related to mass in general relativity, such as Komar mass and Bondi mass, which differ from the concept of active gravitational mass discussed in the referenced paper.
  • Another participant notes that the peak gravitational field of an ultra-relativistic flyby leads to an impulsive effect rather than a continuous change, which may have implications for understanding gravitational lensing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the relevance and application of the concept of relativistic mass to gravitational lensing. There is no consensus on how the recessional velocity of galaxies affects their gravitational lensing, and the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding gravitational effects based on outdated concepts and emphasize the need for clarity regarding the definitions and frameworks used in general relativity. The discussion also points out that the relationship between velocity and gravitational lensing is not straightforward and may depend on specific conditions and definitions.

Einstein's Cat
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I am aware that the greater a body's velocity the greater its relativistic mass. As a result, I assume that the faster a galaxy is receeding from us, the greater its gravitational lensing affect is. My question is this: does the extent of a galaxies gravitational lensing continue to increase at a constant rate as the galaxy's recessional velocity exceeds the speed of light or not? Thank you for your help and please correct any stupid assumptions!
 
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Einstein's Cat said:
As a result, I assume that the faster a galaxy is receeding from us, the greater its gravitational lensing affect is.
You then assume wrong. Relativistic mass is an archaic concept which is generally no longer referred to by professional physicists. It has nothing to do with how gravitation works.
 
Orodruin said:
You then assume wrong. Relativistic mass is an archaic concept which is generally no longer referred to by professional physicists. It has nothing to do with how gravitation works.
Why is the concept no longer referred to?
 
Einstein's Cat said:
Why is the concept no longer referred to?
Because it leads to conversations like this. So called "relativistic mass" has nothing to do with gravitation. The source term for gravity in general relativity is the stress-energy tensor, which does not include a term that looks like relativistic mass.

Typing this on my phone. Predictive text successfully typed the whole of that last sentence from "stress-energy" onwards. I may have answered this question before...

Edit: The stress-energy tensor does include a term for mass (or "rest mass", if you prefer). That's why Newtonian gravity has mass as the source term. There are also terms in the stress-energy tensor that are affected by the motion - just not in the straightforward way you may be imagining. For more info, have a search on this site for "what is relativistic mass and why isn't it used".
 
Last edited:
Einstein's Cat said:
I am aware that the greater a body's velocity the greater its relativistic mass. As a result, I assume that the faster a galaxy is receeding from us, the greater its gravitational lensing affect is. My question is this: does the extent of a galaxies gravitational lensing continue to increase at a constant rate as the galaxy's recessional velocity exceeds the speed of light or not? Thank you for your help and please correct any stupid assumptions!

Unfortunately, relativistic mass does not directly determine how much a body gravitates, specifically plugging "relativistic mass" into Newton's gravity law doesn't give the correct answers.

There is a paper that addresses the effect of a moving body on a motionless dust field that gives the correct relativistic answer to how much velocity is imparted to a stationary dust field by a relativistic flyby, and compares it to the Newtonian answer. See Olson, D.W.; Guarino, R. C. (1985). "Measuring the active gravitational mass of a moving object". When compared in this particular manner, the relativistic answer is that you get more of an induced velocity due to a relativistic flyby than you would by (incorrectly) using Newton's laws and plugging in the "relativisitc mass" in place of the Newtonian M.

But I don't know of anyone who has derived a similar result for gravitational lensing. I suspect that the result will be similar to Olson's for dust, but I can't guarantee it . You may have some difficulty tracking the paper down, though. You can find the abstract of the paper at http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985AmJPh..53..661O, I'll attempt to quote the abstract (but it's better to read the full paper if you can get it).

If a heavy object with rest mass M moves past you with a velocity comparable to the speed of light, you will be attracted gravitationally towards its path as though it had an increased mass. If the relativistic increase in active gravitational mass is measured by the transverse (and longitudinal) velocities which such a moving mass induces in test particles initially at rest near its path, then we find, with this definition, that Mrel=γ(1+β2)M. Therefore, in the ultrarelativistic limit, the active gravitational mass of a moving body, measured in this way, is not γM but is approximately 2γM.

The abstract is a bit over-general, it's important to realize that the "active gravitational mass" is a term not (AFAIK) in general use, specific to this paper, that computes what one might term the "average" field due to a relativistic flyby. This is something that is explained well in the paper but isn't clear at all from the abstract. The more commonly used notions of mass in GR are such masses as the Komar mass, the Bondi mass, and the ADM mass, which behave differently than the sort of "mass" the author describes in this paper.

Something else that is interesting to note and may not be mentioned in this paper, though it's mentioned in other papers. If you look at the peak field (and not the average field) of an ultra-relativistic flyby, you get the Aichelberg sexl solution, which is an impulsive plane-polarized gravity wave. In the ultra-relativistic limit, the velocity of a test particle changes by an impulse function, not in a continuous manner.
 
pervect said:
Unfortunately, relativistic mass does not directly determine how much a body gravitates, specifically plugging "relativistic mass" into Newton's gravity law doesn't give the correct answers.

There is a paper that addresses the effect of a moving body on a motionless dust field that gives the correct relativistic answer to how much velocity is imparted to a stationary dust field by a relativistic flyby, and compares it to the Newtonian answer. See Olson, D.W.; Guarino, R. C. (1985). "Measuring the active gravitational mass of a moving object". When compared in this particular manner, the relativistic answer is that you get more of an induced velocity due to a relativistic flyby than you would by (incorrectly) using Newton's laws and plugging in the "relativisitc mass" in place of the Newtonian M.

But I don't know of anyone who has derived a similar result for gravitational lensing. I suspect that the result will be similar to Olson's for dust, but I can't guarantee it . You may have some difficulty tracking the paper down, though. You can find the abstract of the paper at http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985AmJPh..53..661O, I'll attempt to quote the abstract (but it's better to read the full paper if you can get it).
The abstract is a bit over-general, it's important to realize that the "active gravitational mass" is a term not (AFAIK) in general use, specific to this paper, that computes what one might term the "average" field due to a relativistic flyby. This is something that is explained well in the paper but isn't clear at all from the abstract. The more commonly used notions of mass in GR are such masses as the Komar mass, the Bondi mass, and the ADM mass, which behave differently than the sort of "mass" the author describes in this paper.

Something else that is interesting to note and may not be mentioned in this paper, though it's mentioned in other papers. If you look at the peak field (and not the average field) of an ultra-relativistic flyby, you get the Aichelberg sexl solution, which is an impulsive plane-polarized gravity wave. In the ultra-relativistic limit, the velocity of a test particle changes by an impulse function, not in a continuous manner.
Thank you so much for your help which has proven very useful!
 

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