Should Guns Trump Free Speech?

[FlexGunship]

To respond to your latter point, a gun show is NOT "carrying openly"... it's a GUN SHOW. I'm not worried if I see someone in full plate armor and sword either... if I'm taking my niece to a Renaissance fair.

We're talking about EVERYBODY carrying openly, not a concentration of people (mostly) interested in a hobby.

I think you might have just grazed my point and not really hit it. Yet, I assure you, people don't "check their guns at the door" at any gun show around here! True, they usually must be unloaded (so as not to be confused with show items). But I'll drop it.

 

[FlexGunship]

No it isn't, but in the modern world that we DO live in, what country is so armed and enjoys anything we'd call peace?

Honestly, you've never been able to gauge the mood of a country, or even a region, by who is carrying what openly? I see two police, one with a shotgun, and the other with an assault rifle guarding a bank, I've learned a LOT about where I am. If everyone has pistols on their hips... well... I think I'd believe I'd gone to the fictional old west. There has never been a time where we had these kind of modern weapons that are feasible to CARRY while you do something unrelated to toting that gun.

I'm getting your point, but you're using examples to cite some sort of relationship. You've got the relationship backwards. When everyone is carrying guns, it doesn't mean it's a warzone. However, when you are in a warzone, there's a good chance everyone will be carrying a gun.

This reversal of cause-and-effect that you are working on is exactly why I cited "gun shows" as a counterpoint. Warzones invite guns... guns don't invite warzones.

 

[DanP]

not a concentration of people (mostly) interested in a hobby.

Yeah, guns are nice as collectibles as well. Humans collected arms for display since a long time.

Whats not to like in such marvels like this one ?

 

[nismaratwork]

I think you might have just grazed my point and not really hit it. Yet, I assure you, people don't "check their guns at the door" at any gun show around here! True, they usually must be unloaded (so as not to be confused with show items). But I'll drop it.

I mean people carrying as a rule, as a matter of course, in GENERAL society... not a group of gun enthusiasts. I've BEEN to gun shows, and it's like any "con"... it's fun, it's peppy, and it's full of people with a similar interest. This is NOT a fair example of normal gun behaviour, period, it's the exception.

 

[JaredJames]

Fair enough. I guess if you haven't been around guns much they might seem a little pseudo-mystical and scary. I mean, I have a totally irrational fear of bees! Who am I to talk about what you should and shouldn't be scared of.

Again, it's not the gun itself I'm concerned with. It's the person with it.

There's nothing about a gun that amazes / mystifies me. It's purely my concern that there's a person willing to take a life stood opposite me along with the means to do so. That's what puts me on edge.

A gun randomly on the table in front of me wouldn't even get a reaction (well, nothing more than me doing a few 007 impressions in the mirror).

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm getting your point, but you're using examples to cite some sort of relationship. You've got the relationship backwards. When everyone is carrying guns, it doesn't mean it's a warzone. However, when you are in a warzone, there's a good chance everyone will be carrying a gun.

This reversal of cause-and-effect that you are working on is exactly why I cited "gun shows" as a counterpoint. Warzones invite guns... guns don't invite warzones.

OK, my view on guns is really clear (ask jarednjames if you need confirmation): I like guns. I LOVE to target shoot. I carry concealed for self defense.


Cause... no, but it's a telling symptom once everyone is carrying a gun. Why should people in this country imitate behaviour that we need a warzone or gun-con to cite? I'm not being anti-gun, I think this is common-sense stuff.


I do want to be REALLY clear however: yeah, everyone in Afghanistan might have an AK-47, but they hardly need to fight as their history makes clear. By the same token, what does it say about a culture that imitates a warzone as a statement? We don't duel anymore, we don't need to display our arms to defend ourselves... I'm just at a loss: why carry openly in everyday life? At a gun show... no problem, just like a range.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yeah, nice as collectibles as well. Humans collected arms for a long time.

Whats not to like?

Wow... when I edit your post to the point of absurdity, it IS just the way you take a part of a sentence form my posts.

*Obviously the "quoted" post is not an accurate quote. This is satire, for those who are tone-deaf.

Dan, if you want to talk, and follow even the basic forum guidelines around quoting... great. Otherwise, why are you here?

 

[DanP]

There's nothing about a gun that amazes / mystifies me. It's purely my concern that there's a person willing to take a life stood opposite me along with the means to do so. That's what puts me on edge.

.

Its not rational. Its not rational to believe that only persons who open carry are willing to take a life. Its also irrational to think that a person who doesn't carry any weapon is not willing to take a life. Or that persons who open carry would do it in anything but extreme conditions and in a law sanctioned way. What do you think about someone who is carrying concealed and has a suppressor on his weapon ? Id be more worried to detect a concealed weapon with a suppressor than a ballroom full of blokes who open carry. I think it's in your mind. You are not comfortable with the weapon, so you see in everyone which carries a threat.

 

[JaredJames]

Its not rational to believe that only persons who open carry are willing to take a life.

I never said that.

Its also irrrational to think that a person who doesn't carry any weapon is not willing to take a life.

Never said I think that.

You are not comfortable with the weapon, so you see in everyone which carries a threat.

It's irrational to see a person with a gun as a potential threat to you?

Or that persons who open carry would do it in anything but extreme conditions and in a law sanctioned way.

I never said that.

 

[DanP]

I never said that.


Never said I think that.



I never said that.

Then why do you fear a gun in sight ?

It's irrational to see a person with a gun as a potential threat to you?

Kinda yes, because it depends of the situation. In the vast majority of cases, a person with a gun is not a threat to you.

 

[JaredJames]

Then why do you fear a gun in sight ?

I'm not explaining it for a fourth time. It's not the gun that gets me.

Kinda yes, because it depends of the situation. In the vast majority of cases, a person with a gun is not a threat to you.

You're ignoring 'potential'.

 

[FlexGunship]

I'm just at a loss: why carry openly in everyday life?

I know we're not talking about gun control. Forgive the cliche and please forgive the hyperbole, but, seriously...

 

[DanP]

I'm not explaining it for a fourth time. It's not the gun that gets me.

If its not the gun, why don't you fear everyone around you ? For everyone of them can be in theory a person willing to kill and with the means to do it, only that you can't see them.

You're ignoring 'potential'.

Look, do you recall Annie Hall movie ?

MOTHER
(To the doctor)
He's been depressed. All off a sudden,
he can't do anything.

DOCTOR
(Nodding)
Why are you depressed, Alvy?

MOTHER
(Nudging Alvy)
Tell Dr. Flicker.
(Young Alvy sits, his head down. His
mother answers for him)
It's something he read.

DOCTOR
(Puffing on his cigarette and
nodding)
Something he read, huh?

ALVY
(His head still down)
The universe is expanding.

DOCTOR
The universe is expanding?

ALVY
(Looking up at the doctor)
Well, the universe is everything, and if
it's expanding, someday it will break apart
and that would be the end of everything!

Disgusted, his mother looks at him.

MOTHER
(shouting)
What is that your business?
(she turns back to the doctor)
He stopped doing his homework.

ALVY
What's the point?

MOTHER
(Excited, gesturing with her hands)
What has the universe got to do with it?
You're here in Brooklyn! Brooklyn is not
expanding!

 

[nismaratwork]

Jared... don't feed him. We're talking about someone who doesn't see a gun as a threat... fair enough. "Egy [*ember] beledobja a kútba a követ, száz okos." Don't waste the effort trying to collect stones.

Original is: Egy bolond beledobja a kútba a követ, száz okos, but that would be unfair.

 

[DanP]

J. "Egy [*ember] beledobja a kútba a követ, száz okos." Don't waste the effort trying to collect stones.

Original is: Egy bolond beledobja a kútba a követ, száz okos, but that would be unfair.

I am speaking Hungarian man :P You forgot "... se veszi ki " You know, the action that the 100 geniuses can't do :P

 

[nismaratwork]

I know we're not talking about gun control. Forgive the cliche and please forgive the hyperbole, but, seriously...

Funny pic, but we are just talking about how to carry.

This kind of image aside (HOT):

We're talking about that, with or without an overshirt. I'd still call her well armed, wouldn't you? No?

ARE you SURE?

Remember, she's selling CONCEALED carry.

vs.

These ... um.. bags.

Really sir? The low drop leather holster with a long-handle revolver? Phew... I know cops who would rather go unarmed than armed like that. The gun screams, "take me, Ah drawr easah."

 

[DanP]

ARE you SURE?

Im very sure. I would hit on her in a blink of an eye.

 

[FlexGunship]

Funny pic, but we are just talking about how to carry.

You specifically asked: "why carry openly in everyday life?" I guess if you meant "as opposed to carrying concealed" then, fine.

I should mention that I'm NOT a gun owner; in the interest of full disclosure.

 

[nismaratwork]

I am speaking Hungarian man :P You forgot "... se veszi ki " You know, the action that the 100 geniuses can't do :P

No Dan, you're throwing stones into wells, but you're right, I forgot "se veszi ki"... the perils of not using Google.

Vak tyúk is talál szemet. Nemerted?

 

[nismaratwork]

You specifically asked: "why carry openly in everyday life?" I guess if you meant "as opposed to carrying concealed" then, fine.

I should mention that I'm NOT a gun owner; in the interest of full disclosure.

If there's a point in my argument where I'm arguing AGAINST carrying concealed... I can't find it. I'm arguing against open carry vs. concealed, the point being that it's a genuine point to debate as opposed to the fictional "1st vs. 2nd amendments."

As I've disclosed before, I own several pistols, a rifle, and a shotgun. I've never in my life felt the desire to hunt; I target shoot, sometimes I carry concealed (situational), and otherwise that's it. Never in my life have I felt the need to carry a gun, for the purpose of self defense, OPENLY.

 

[DanP]

Vak tyúk is talál szemet. Nemerted?

So cool! I figured this holds true by reading your posts.

 

[nismaratwork]

So cool! I figured this holds true by reading your posts.

You know... I don't think you've made a single substantive comment in this thread. Huh. I could quote another proverb, but really... I think 'Cee Lo Green' said it best:

"You closin' threads round PF like a bit of a thug, and uh, good luck to yoooouuu."

I think those are the lyrics.


Anyway, still don't have an answer to the question of, why open vs. concealed?

 

[DanP]

You know... I don't think you've made a single substantive comment in this thread.

While you amazed us all with your eloquence in Hungarian language.

Anyway, still don't have an answer to the question of, why open vs. concealed?

I never argued in favor of either. Its largely indifferent to me, so I see no reason to take sides in this pointless debate. I argue against irrational fear of weapons or irrational fear that anyone who carry (concealed or open) is a potential disaster waiting to happen.

And if you don't recall, this is not the subject of this thread. It is whatever guns infringe your right to free speech. Which I answered clearly, they DO NOT.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Anyway, still don't have an answer to the question of, why open vs. concealed?

Who cares? It's pointless to argue one vs. the other, you can choose whichever you prefer. The original question of this thread was if open carry infringes on free speech, which it doesn't.

 

[nismaratwork]

While you amazed us all with your eloquence in Hungarian language.

I'm pleased with how I've expressed my point in this thread; it's the views of people like Flex, Jared, Mug, and others I care about... when it's down to you running at the mouth it seems to be your way of trying to lock threads. By the way, how's Kate Moss? *wink*

I never argued in favor of either. Its largely indifferent to me, so I see no reason to take sides in this pointless debate.

No kidding? I'd mistaken you for someone who cared, and not just a nihilist out to amuse himself. Thanks for the quality info. *WINK!*

I argue against irrational fear of weapons or irrational fear that anyone who carry (concealed or open) is a potential disaster waiting to happen.

Wait... what? Who's expressing that fear? You've tried to cast Jared in that role, but really he's just arguing along the non-gun owner line as myself, or visa versa if you like. Flex... I don't know yet. Mug is too damned responsible to carry his gun openly in a situation that would RAISE debate, and therefore isn't an issue. What's your experience with firearms anyway?

And if you don't recall, this is not the subject of this thread. It is whatever guns infringe your right to free speech. Which I answered clearly, they DO NOT.

No, the subject of the thread was nebulous, even by the admission of the OP. The concept pits two COMPATIBLE legal rights as though they conflicted. In response, as a group, we've isolated the one situation in which that's even an issue, and so far... I'm yet to hear a case for the "open carry" side.

Wait... didn't you just say:

I never argued in favor of either. Its largely indifferent to me, so I see no reason to take sides in this pointless debate.

?

Then talked about how you argued, and the intent of the thread? Here's an English colloquialism: blowing smoke. You're doing it.

 

[nismaratwork]

Who cares? It's pointless to argue one vs. the other, you can choose whichever you prefer. The original question of this thread was if open carry infringes on free speech, which it doesn't.

People care, it's an issue for voters and gun rights/control advocates. That is established fat, and a reason for the variation in laws by state.

So, without a dodge, do you have an answer or not? Why carry openly vs. concealed in a standard SD "jaunt" (no more gun shows or Ted Nugent hikes...)?

If you can't answer it, fine, but to say in the face of an ongoing debate in the courts that nobody cares is either ignorant, or dishonest.

edit:

While you amazed us all with your eloquence in Hungarian language.

Sidenote: If you'd like me to amaze you with ACTUAL eloquence in Hungarian, permit me to share via an email and I'll speak freely. You'll be, "amazed"... or offended... people can be so unpredictable.

 

[DanP]

Sidenote: If you'd like me to amaze you with ACTUAL eloquence in Hungarian, permit me to share via an email and I'll speak freely. You'll be, "amazed"... or offended... people can be so unpredictable.

Send a PM, genius :P

 

[DanP]

Wait... what? Who's expressing that fear? You've tried to cast Jared in that role, but really he's just arguing along the non-gun owner line as myself, or visa versa if you like. Flex... I don't know yet. Mug is too damned responsible to carry his gun openly in a situation that would RAISE debate, and therefore isn't an issue. What's your experience with firearms anyway?

My country had a mandatory conscription program until recently. Virtually all men my age have served in the armed forces.

 

[nismaratwork]

My country had a mandatory conscription program until recently. Virtually all men my age has served in the armed forces.

...Which in no way prepares you for civilian self defense except in terms of accuracy with a sidearm. My country had much the same, and the switch from military to civilian police is quite vast.

 

[nismaratwork]

Send a PM, genius :P

For this? No, nothing through this site.

 

[Proton Soup]

Would you feel that you could speak (or argue) freely with a person having his handgun displayed? I believe that I would be intimidated, so censoring my self-expression, by people (not of law enforcement) who use a handgun as a public warning of deadly force. Thus, most "self-deputized" citizens could suggest that their handgun trumps the voice of an individual unarmed.

By the way, one of my favorite sports has been target shooting, but I would never wear a (hand)gun.

i find the law enforcement officer to be the bigger censor of self-expression. because he's the one that actually has the authority to order you to disperse, or worse, to take you into custody.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

People care, it's an issue for voters and gun rights/control advocates. That is established fat, and a reason for the variation in laws by state.

Why would you be more afraid of a law abiding citizen open carrying than one who is carrying concealed? All of your points about open carry are based in fear and suspicion of that person using it for unlawful purposes. However, your suspicions apprently don't apply to concealed carry not because it is safer, but simply because you can't see the gun...

Criminals don't open carry in the first place!

So, without a dodge, do you have an answer or not? Why carry openly vs. concealed in a standard SD "jaunt" (no more gun shows or Ted Nugent hikes...)?

If you can't answer it, fine, but to say in the face of an ongoing debate in the courts that nobody cares is either ignorant, or dishonest.

There's nothing to dodge! Given both options, open carry and concealed carry are both personal choices. Open carry apprently illicits more negative reactions, but those reactions are not based in sound logical argument but instead in misunderstanding and emotional discomfort. Just because YOU wouldn't open carry a firearm, doesn't mean open carry altogether should be outlawed.

 

[DanP]

Then talked about how you argued, and the intent of the thread? Here's an English colloquialism: blowing smoke. You're doing it.

Look, this is what you did for 1500+ posts. Blowing something, not sure if smoke.

I don't care if X choose to carry concealed or open. It's his choice. It doesn't phase me. I am not arguing in favor of either. If it bothers you, write a letter to your representatives, asking them to ban weapons or open carry or whatever. I don't care .

Yes, the subject of this thread was OPs question on whatever guns infringe free speech. They dont. It derailed into another thread filled with irrational fear of weapons and how "fearsome" and "dangerous" the ppl who carry open are. Unfortunately.

 

[JaredJames]

Oh come on people, when you see someone you don't know with a gun are you honestly saying you don't see that person as a potential threat to you?

What is illogical or irrational about seeing a person with a gun as a potential threat?

Nobody is saying that everyone who carries a gun is dangerous.

 

[FlexGunship]

Oh come on people, when you see someone you don't know with a gun are you honestly saying you don't see that person as a potential threat to you?

I'm specifically addressing THIS question, right now.

No.

I do not have the knee-jerk reaction you have. I absolutely feel more uneasy when someone walks into a candy store with a fire ax. I mean that. I feel safer at the store when the guy next to me is rockin' a Glock. My experiences with gun owners is positive, not negative.

That person is no more a "potential threat" than a man with a hammer, but the man carrying the hammer around town is suspicious as f*ck! The guy who carries a firearm around town is just a gun owner.

Jared... not everyone shares the same feelings you do on this subject. (EDIT: In the same way that I know a lot of people DO NOT share my irrational fear of bees.)