- #141
DanP
- 114
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jarednjames said:
I don't, Jared. It's the context which may make me warry, but the simple sight of a gun doesn't phase me.
Should Guns Trump Free Speech?
- Thread starter Loren Booda
- Start date
In summary: Sorry, that's what the wink was for. The irony that no matter what you do it really doesn't make much difference and that at no point will everyone be equal. Even if physically identical, we just won't let that happen.
I don't, Jared. It's the context which may make me warry, but the simple sight of a gun doesn't phase me.
- #142
Jimmy Snyder
- 1,127
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How about a phaser?DanP said:
- #143
FlexGunship
Gold Member
- 426
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Jimmy Snyder said:
- #144
DanP
- 114
- 1
Jimmy Snyder said:
Are you kidding me ? Of course it does :P
[PLAIN]http://i.fanpix.net/images/orig/j/u/jut548bhqb9tb8qt.jpg
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- #145
nismaratwork
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DanP said:
Yeah, except for myself, who owns guns and carries one, mugaliens (same), Flex (non-owner, but supporter), and yes, Jarednjames who is just expressing his view.
You talk so much about how you don't care, but then you keep talking. Show me how much you don't care... don't post!
Mech_Engineer: What kind of... individual... assumes that a random person is law-abiding or not? We're talking about an open display of armaments vs. a closed display, with both being equally effective as a means of self defense. My suspicions DO apply to concealed carry, when I'm able to notice it, as I actually mentioned earlier. You should read more when posting outside of your very range, it would help your accuracy.
Oh, and I have a fond memory of an episode of cops, when this idiot kid had a damned Tec-9 in his pants, and the cop (no shock) spotted it from his patrol car. Anyway, I mentioned how a gun, once noted, in connection with behaviour and other observations is the sum total. Regardless, if I don't know someone, they could be ANYONE... all I know is that they have a gun.
You're more than welcome to bet on the good will of strangers with guns, me, I'll get to know them before I let my guard down. Even then, you always respect the gun unless the slide is back and mechanically locked.
This is basic stuff.
Oh, and "open carry and concealed carry are [NOT ALWAYS] personal choices." as you put it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry_in_the_United_States This is a legal issue, and unsettled law at that. In the meantime, if you want to be shot because someone else acts illogically, I'll manage somehow, and be sure that: "...But logically he shouldn't have shot me... *gurgle*" on your tombstone.
- #146
nismaratwork
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Jimmy Snyder said:
:rofl:
*note: I'd laugh until it was fired to prove it was real. Then I'd probably just try to stay on my feet and obey commands.
- #147
FlexGunship
Gold Member
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DanP said:
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- #148
nismaratwork
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FlexGunship said:
OK... once again maybe we're talking past each other here. If someone walked into an urban store with a fire axe, and anything other than a fireman's SUIT... I'd be on my damned toes. The key is probably that you said, "more wary"... well yeah, but again: you're at the movies and you notice that someone whom you've never met is carrying openly, do you take note of that person? If not, why not, and if so, why?
Anyway, you keep making this anti-gun-control argument when it isn't being MADE. I didn't realize that being able to collect all manner of firearms, carry handguns concealed, carry openly at ranges, retreats, hunts, shows and other events (even in states where it's normally BANNED!) impinged on my second amendment right so much! Hell, it isn't enough that we can own an M82 fully scoped?... because I like to vaporize deer from a mile away, or for those rare occasions when I'm under siege by an APC.
We have INCREDIBLE freedom... let's show a little... darned... responsibility and actually follow what is sound tactical doctrine ANYWAY!
- #149
DanP
- 114
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FlexGunship said:
Beat this, Flex man
[PLAIN]http://cyncity.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/07/galacticababesgqapril08_2.jpg
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- #150
nismaratwork
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DanP said:
Yeah, I'll top that... (no pun! har har) type this into google image: "bullet wound"
- #151
thephysicsman
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Loren Booda said:
It depends who it is. If it was a good friend, that'd be no problem.
- #152
FlexGunship
Gold Member
- 426
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nismaratwork said:
Well, okay. I will yield a bit here. There's no actual reason why you shouldn't be aware of gun carriers near you. They're likely to be the ones who can save you when another Luby's massacre happens.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacreWikipedia said:
How much do you think Suzanna Hupp wished she had carried her gun into the restaurant with her that day? Open carry, or concealed? I'm sure she is living the rest of her life with her gun at her side... in movie theaters, shopping malls, daycares, and PTA meetings.
- #153
nismaratwork
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FlexGunship said:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre
Right, or they're Loughner, or a cop, or a citizen, or a crook. As people, we have no way of knowing, so I tend to be cautious rather than optimistic about people in general. If someone walked in with a big damned knife out I'd take note too; it's doesn't mean I'd hate the person or garrote them. I'm talking about situational awareness: armed = more threat than unarmed.
Oh and about Luby's... I think that argument is a little old as of three weeks ago. There was a crowd there to meet their pro-gun congresswomen... none of them returned fire. One of the guys who tackled Loughner may have been armed, but that would just hurt your case more. After all, according to Barber (shot in the leg and cheek), Loughner "swept" his gun while rapidly firing into the crowd after his initial aimed shot to the congresswoman's head.
By that same man's account, he had his gun in hand... in AZ, where you'd think someone in that safeway or parking lot would be the fictional "hero of luby's". I'm not convinced: if you have a gun, skill, and initiative... that's a massive tactical advantage and we both know it. If you're not actively scanning crowds for people carrying guns, AND making note of that fact, as well as behavioral profiling... you're not really going to save lives.
FlexGunship said:
OK... I bet she wished that she had it, and given that gunner was picking people off with no concern for any lives (including his own), it's reasonable to assume he'd start with HER if she carried OPEN. If she's carrying concealed... good move I say, but then, we've already established that I'm the gun owner out of the pair of us, and like most who are in it for pure SD/HD (and target, sport/hobby) I carry concealed because I believe it's an ADDED advantage.
Explain to me how Ms. Hupp would have been better served with open carry, rather than a pistol on a rig? Very emotional and all, but you know me... I like you, but this is business... and you deflected to something we don't actually disagree with: she should have had a gun on her.
I just don't think she should have it worn in the style of the 1700-1800's. Call me post-modern.
- #154
FlexGunship
Gold Member
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nismaratwork said:Right, or they're Loughner, or a cop, or [...] think she should have it worn in the style of the 1700-1800's. Call me post-modern.
Okay, fine. I've been dragging this a bit off-topic. The fact is, I've been around gun carriers for a long time. Open and concealed. The OP asked if it would inhibit my freedom of speech, and I'm at the point in my life where I can say that it wouldn't. The gun carriers are my friends; they're there to protect me.
Concealed: offers greater tactical advantage in an actual "situation." Granted.
Unconcealed: let's people around you know you have nothing to hide.
Which are there more of: honest gun-carrying citizens or crazed lunatics? I don't treat every guy in a car as a drunk driver until he does something decidedly drunk-looking. I don't treat every guy with a gun like a maniac until he does something decided maniacal!
It's not an absurd proposition. Maybe I just feel safer in New Hampshire.
- #155
Mech_Engineer
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nismaratwork said:
I'm a concealed carrry permit holder as well. I only open carry on gun ranges, mainly for the general reasons presented. But unlike you, I can understand the aruments FOR open carry as well, such as discouraging a criminal from approaching you in the first place.
nismaratwork said:
I've done plenty of reading on the subject, including publications from the FBI and NRA. Here's a good finding from the FBI study "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers":
From USNews.com:
In attempting to discredit open carry, anti-gun activists often like to ask the question, "How do I know that the person openly carrying is in fact a law-abiding citizen and not a criminal?" While this is an attempt to imply that anyone who lawfully carries a firearm is a potential criminal, thankfully there is an authoritative answer available. The 2006 FBI study "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers" by Anthony Pinizzotto revealed that criminals carefully conceal their firearms, and they eschew the use of holsters. In layman's terms, this report tells us that, statistically speaking, citizens who are openly wearing a properly holstered handgun and are willing to subject themselves to the intense public and law enforcement scrutiny that open carry brings with it are not criminals.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/04/15/why-open-carry-gun-laws-work
Link to full FBI Study and summary of it's findings: http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=86516
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- #156
nismaratwork
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FlexGunship said:
Remember FLex... and this is the part we all hate to think about: who is that is MOST likely to rape, murder, kidnap, etx... you or someone you love? Nearest and Dearest. Why?... well, one theory is that it has to do with trust, and a desire to maintain a sense of social equilibrium.
Anyway, you SHOULD feel safe in NH!... really, it's a pretty nice place, although ungodly cold this time of year (I guess you know that... heh). Is it gun toting neighbors protecting you who make you safe, or is it just the population density, standard of living, etc?
I'd feel safer naked in NH, than I would with all three of my pistols on open holsters, and a shotgun with a bandoleer... in Detroit, at night. If people don't get you, bloody bears MIGHT (not a joke). If I lived in rural NH, I'd definitely get a nice long rifle: you can actually take long shots safely in some parts of NH!
Anyway, my point is that I go for tactical advantage when it comes to weapons, not the statement. If I want to tell people that I support guns, there are ways to do that without displaying the nature of my arms.
Oh, and the question really is: are there enough honest, gun-carrying citizens with the training, who carry (open or otherwise) on their person to really effect crime? I'm not seeing it in any state, with or without concealed or open carry laws. There are a loooot of armed robberies each year, and what will a cop tell you? Give them the money, don't brandish a weapon, if you have one and need to use it try and get the element of surprise.
After all, who the hell wants to be in a one-one shoot out?! Luby's works because it was a clear last resort in extrema... most crime wouldn't merit a lethal response from civilians. For those that do, I would argue concealed just makes sense, as I have all along.
- #157
nismaratwork
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Mech_Engineer said:
Stop for a second... that last statement: is it falsifiable? How many times has a criminal taken a look at someone who has (or who they THINK has) a gun, and walks away? Does that criminal then rob the next store? Maybe, but it's not a valid claim. Making you a target on the other hand, may not be common for a random junkie, but it is preferred tactical doctrine.
Mech_Engineer said:
What that report should tell you, given who tends to shoot and kill whom, is that you should imitate the criminals and everyone else except police. I'm asking why wear it openly, not if doing so magically turns you into a criminal. Again, I'm still taking note if someone has a gun... I take note if a friend who has a gun decides to have a beer. I keep track of a lot, so maybe I'm just a freak (have fun with that), but part of life should be casual risk evaluation.
Do people who openly carry guns follow OTHER elements of tradecraft that would improve their chances (proven to btw) in a violent encounter? I agree with Flex agreeing with me: concealed = tactical advantage, and your assertion that guns prevent crime is not falsifiable, and I'm not sure that it can be proven either.
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- #158
Mech_Engineer
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nismaratwork said:
This isn't "real" proof in that it isn't a statistical study, but it does happen (your interpretation of "preferred tactical doctrine" isn't proof either, criminals will tend to target the weakest individual).
From Examiner.com:
There is some debate raging in Georgia about whether people should conceal their holstered handguns while in public. Some believe that wearing handguns openly will result in a loss of the element of surprise during a criminal attack, such as an armed robbery, while others believe that wearing handguns openly deters criminal attack. For Matt Brannan and J.P. Mitchell, who carry openly as a routine, the issue is no longer academic.
Matt Brannan and J.P. Mitchell were dining in the Wafflehouse on Barrett Parkway at I-575 in Kennesaw at 4:45 in the morning recently when a scout for an armed robbery crew entered the restaurant to case it. At the time, Matt and J.P. thought he looked a little suspicious, as he was wandering around the small restaurant like he was looking for someone. Unknown to Matt and J.P., two cars full of armed robbers were parked behind the restaurant waiting for the scout's report.
The scout saw that two of the customers were wearing holstered 1911 Springfield Mil-Spec .45 pistols, and he immediately turned and left the store.
Meanwhile, conscientious Cobb County Police Officer D. Lowe had noticed suspicious cars sitting behind the restaurant in the dark and decided to investigate. He caught men with masks and rifles who had been preparing to rob the Wafflehouse. The criminals informed the police that they had changed their mind upon discovering armed customers and were waiting for Matt and J.P. to leave. Ironically, the police car was pulling into the parking lot just as Matt and J.P. were driving away. In other words, had Matt and J.P. not been armed, the robbery probably would have occurred before the police intervened.
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw
- #159
nismaratwork
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Mech_Engineer said:
You can list a thousand anecdotes, and for each one there could be one, or a dozen counter-examples. We don't, and won't know... because again, your claim isn't falsifiable.
Oh, and there is no, "my interpretation of tactical doctrine", there is just the tactical doctrine of given organizations, LEA's, and MOST importantly... what applies in the state you're in. If you want to seriously make the argument that carrying concealed doesn't' confer a benefit to the person carrying, your going to need some hard evidence that isn't controversial.
I'd note... there is this constant preoccupation with some here of, "THE CRIMINAL" attacking you. Guess what, unless you're a criminal too, or work in a select number of fields... that's unlikely! Watch your back at your next family picnic however, they're out to kill you. Those statistics exist, and are AFAIK common knowledge. Stranger Danger is crap, and it's the mentality that has people paranoid rather than cautious. I'm not saying that it never happens, but you just choose to pretend that guns are mostly used to defend people.
No, mostly , criminals shoot other criminals, cops shoots criminals, criminals shoot cops, and soldiers shoot each other.
Frankly, civilians, as in "clean record" civilians... least likely victims of violent crime.
- #160
Loren Booda
- 3,125
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How statistically speaking - 51%? Why scrutiny if not potentially criminal?
My point here is that the statement seems poorly worded.
_____If a replica can induce fear then why not a real, open pistol?
_____What is the minimum responsibility to the public needed to wear an open pistol?
- #161
nismaratwork
- 359
- 0
Loren Booda said:How statistically speaking - 51%? Why scrutiny if not potentially criminal?
My point here is that the statement seems poorly worded.
_____
If a replica can induce fear then why not a real, open pistol?
_____
What is the minimum responsibility to the public needed to wear an open pistol?
Pro and Anti studies have the same kind of language, because they're both trying to prove or falsify something that is hasn't been, and may never be done.
Oh, as for responsibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry_in_the_United_States
It's by the state, and it's VERY varied.
- #162
nismaratwork
- 359
- 0
I'd add, ANY group that is willing to undergo such scrutiny, for ANY reason, will result in weeding out some of the "bad apples". In that case, guns are just the window dressing for the real point: it's the "criminal" with guns.
- #163
Mech_Engineer
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nismaratwork said:
How "falsifiable" is you claim that criminals will target an armed civilian first (or any of your claims for that matter)? You have yet to post a single study or piece of evidence which meets the standards you're trying to hold me to.
Loren Booda said:How statistically speaking - 51%? Why scrutiny if not potentially criminal?
My point here is that the statement seems to me poorly worded.
The FBI study is available for you to read on your own. Of the criminals interviewed in the study that "almost always" carried a firearm, they carried it in the waistband (groin or back). No holster, and no (public) open carry.
Loren Booda said:
It's taught in the NRA Concealed Carry course that if you're carrying a gun, it had better be loaded. Carrying a fake or unloaded gun can get ugly right away if someone calls your "bluff."
Loren Booda said:
It depends on the state. Some require only that you're allowed to legally own a handgun (which essentially means not a felon and can pass an FBI background check when purchasing the firearm), others require that you have a carry permit (a.k.a. concealed carry permit).
I personally think it's a good idea to require open-carry people to pass the same class concealed-carry permit holders have to go through, if only to familiarize them with local laws and test basic firearm proficiency.
- #164
nismaratwork
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Mech_Engineer said:
I haven't claimed that criminals target armed civilians, I said it's what I'd do, and others have expressed other views. Oh, and the, "oh yeah, well what about yours?!" is just more fallacy...
Mech_Engineer said:
And?
Mech_Engineer said:
Nice dodge, but it neatly avoids the issue that it's also ILLEGAL. In fact, use of such a replica in commission of say, a robbery, = armed robbery. The law recognizes the capacity of a weapon to intimidate (same laws apply) to the point of coercion; it's not an either or proposition, but rather a continuum
<SNIP>
- #165
Mech_Engineer
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nismaratwork said:
You have been taking your opinion as fact the entire time, and yet requiring me to provide hard evidence to back up my claims. Then when I ask YOU for evidence, you say I'm the one perpetrating more fallacy... who's dodging?
nismaratwork said:
I was simply providing the context Loren was asking for. In any case the FBI study is available for perusal at EVERYONE's convenience.
EDIT: also note the statement Loren is referring to as "poorly worded" is not directly from the FBI study, but rather the interpretation of it that I provided.
nismaratwork said:
I was providing a reason that carrying a fake gun to provide criminal deterrence is a bad idea. Do you not agree? I'm not (puposely) trying to avoid anything...
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- #166
nismaratwork
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Mech_Engineer said:
When did I claim that something was both my opinion, and a fact?
Oh, and yes, fake guns are a bad criminal deterrence, but who's been arguing AGAINST that? You're just shadowboxing, giving the usual NRA party line, and that really means you're treating this more as a political than a practical issue.
- #167
nismaratwork
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Mech_Engineer said:
That is one small portion of your post #165. I'm fascinated by it, because you dislike the inequality that I haven't made claims beyond my ability to back up, and instead express opinion. On the other hand, you feel HAMPERED, and as though I am the reason you should provide evidence for your CLAIMS. See, that's the key: I've provided stats and links for my CLAIMS; I'm not doing the same for an opinion.
This, all coming from someone relying on a premise that isn't falsifiable; that criminals are deterred by the sight of a gun.
I love that too, because somehow WE shouldn't even take notice, but criminals run and wet themselves. OOOOOK. I didn't realize that wearing your gun outside of your clothing had an effect on the CNS.
- #168
Mech_Engineer
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nismaratwork said:
When have you presented anything other than your opinion in this entire thread? Keeping this in mind, are you able to discredit the FBI study which shows criminals do not open-carry weapons? "What you would do," and "preferred tactical doctrine" doesn't cut it.
Maybe if a firefight broke out you would be the first one targeted, but the point is that open carrying a firearm can make a criminal think twice about starting a firefight in the first place. The difference is between having to react to a threat (criminal attacks you not knowing you are armed) and preventing the situation altogether (criminal attacks someone else who is not obviously armed, preferring the path of least resistance).
nismaratwork said:
I'm not shadowboxing anything dude! Loren specifically posted "If a replica can induce fear then why not a real, open pistol?" and I responded to it. What's wrong with that? You say yourself that you agree, what are you even arguing at this point?
- #169
nismaratwork
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Mech_Engineer said:
I'm not citing my opinions as a matter of course on GD, but if you have an issue with something I've said, tell me what it is (don't leave me guessing) and I'll either back it up, or retract it. If it's just my opinion, and presented as such... welcome to GD. You keep making claims about reality, such as guns preventing crime... and we BOTH know that's not a valid claim. I'm not going to repeat my original point on that, so yes, when you claim that something is true, rather than simply a profession of belief, you're held to a higher standard.
Your content is so lacking that you're reduced to a critique of my form...in GD... in an ABSURD thread.
I've said it before. sometimes it's good to stick to your primary area of expertise.- #170
Mech_Engineer
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Let me ask this: what is your answer to the original question posed in this thread? (open carry infringes on the right to free speech of others)
EDIT: You already answered it:
SO, this thread is over. It's obvious to me your goal isn't to prove anything, it's just to argue to the bloody end with anyone holding a different opinion than you.
EDIT: You already answered it:
nismaratwork said:
SO, this thread is over. It's obvious to me your goal isn't to prove anything, it's just to argue to the bloody end with anyone holding a different opinion than you.
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- #171
FlexGunship
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nismaratwork said:Your content is so lacking that you're reduced to a critique of my form...in GD... in an ABSURD thread.
Nismar, I've stayed out of this and read every post between you and Mech_Eng... you know we often function as a solid team and I trust our respect is mutual...
...but...
... I really think you're not doing your argument any justice. The excepts that Mech_Eng has been sharing from the FBI report are NOT trivial. They indicate two significant trends among criminals: 1) avoidance of civilians with firearms, and 2) a tendency to avoid open carry practices.
It would be in your argument's best interest to find a counter to these two points. Perhaps you could find a similar study by a different law enforcement agency that indicates the opposite?
- #172
Mech_Engineer
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nismaratwork said:
I'm also curious, what is lacking in my "content"? I've provided at least some semblance of a case (whether you agree with it or not), while you dodge any criticisms by claiming you do not have to back up your opinion...
I've provided links to a study and an (admittedly anecdotal) event in which criminals avoided individuals which were excercising open carry of firearms. I have shown criminals a) statistically do not open carry firearms, and b) criminals will tend to attack people whom they hope are not armed, rather than targeting obviously armed civilians first.
The fact is that no 100% conclusive statistical studies exist which show:
- an increase/reduction in crime rates due to firearm posession
- an increase/reduction in crime rates due to open/concealed carry laws
- an increase/reduction in crime due to firearm control laws in general
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- #173
Mech_Engineer
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FlexGunship said:
In Nismar's defence (how it pains me) the FBI study only shows that criminals statistically do not utilize open carry. I don't think it makes any claims of criminals avoiding armed civilians (although it does seem like a logical conclusion to me).
- #174
Galteeth
- 69
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The Op is imagining the situation from a current perspective, where displaying handguns is not the norm. I think people might be more polite in such a situation, but people would still speak their mind. Although i am, for example, perhaps more cautious in what I say around police officers, I still speak my mind to them, on some occasions in strident tones where the situation warrants it. That is because I understand their use of their weapons is somewhat restricted by consequences. In the OP's hypothetical situation, a person who shot someone for expressing an opinion would quickly find themselves being shot by other people who were similarly armed with handguns.
- #175
FlexGunship
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Mech_Engineer said:
Mech_Engineer said:
Yup, you're completely correct. I confused the FBI report with this one from the Examiner (i.e. story; not study). I apologize for the confusion.
Still... I would count this as a decisive iota of evidence (EDIT: perhaps one step above raw anecdote).
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