H. G. Wells' The Invisible Man

[Mentat]

This topic has interested me ever since I read H. G. Wells' The Invisible Man: How can you make someone truly invisible?

Any ideas are welcome, as I have never thought of a scientifically (or even logically) feasible way.

 

[Astrophysics]

Here's an idea...you have a suit with microscobic cells, some of these cells absorb light some are light sources, those which absorb the light give the information (colours, intesity, etc.) to other cells on the other side of this suit. So if you look at a person with this suit on you'll see what you would see if this person wasn't there.
Naturally this is only theory and hardly practicle.

 

[selfAdjoint]

I had an idea like this a few years ago when I was thinking of writing a short story. In the story a peasant has rescued a witch (actually a representative of an advanced society) from the gallows and they have escaped into the nearby woods, but a search for them has been mounted. Now the witch removes her baggy dress which turns out to be just such a device as you mention, but at a slightly cruder level. She whispers to him that it wouldn'y fool anyone in the light of day, but in the woods, at dusk, it just might. They huddle under it deep in a copse of bushes and are overlooked.

 

[Eyesee]

poke the other guys' eye out

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Eyesee
poke the other guys' eye out

LOL.

Yes, I thought of this, but I was hoping for something a little less violent .

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Astrophysics
Here's an idea...you have a suit with microscobic cells, some of these cells absorb light some are light sources, those which absorb the light give the information (colours, intesity, etc.) to other cells on the other side of this suit. So if you look at a person with this suit on you'll see what you would see if this person wasn't there.
Naturally this is only theory and hardly practicle.

This is what I'm told the new 007 car is like (I haven't - and don't intend to - see(n) the movie). I suppose this is somewhat practical, except that there would have to be a computer that could calculate exactly what the environment would look like (if you weren't there, that is), and change the suit to fit that calculation every time you move. Otherwise, it does seem possible in principle.

 

[Beren]

On a side note:

This is what I'm told the new 007 car is like (I haven't - and don't intend to - see(n) the movie

They actually use cameras that feed what they see to projectors laced throughout the car that projects the image.

Hey, it's a Bond movie.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Beren
On a side note:



They actually use cameras that feed what they see to projectors laced throughout the car that projects the image.

Hey, it's a Bond movie.

I see.

 

[LURCH]

Originally posted by Astrophysics
Here's an idea...you have a suit with microscobic cells, some of these cells absorb light some are light sources, those which absorb the light give the information (colours, intesity, etc.) to other cells on the other side of this suit. So if you look at a person with this suit on you'll see what you would see if this person wasn't there.
Naturally this is only theory and hardly practicle.

This approach has been explored by the US Army. The cells were not microscopic, but small octagons about 3-4 inches across. These were the projection screens, and they fit together like the cells of a honeycomb. At the joints between the screens, there were pinhole cameras with fiberoptic lines running to the appropriate screen the one on the opposite side of the soldier's body).

But, as you say, not practicle. Horrendously expensive to make and almost as bad to maintain, the suit only turns out to be a slight improvement on camo. The plates are large and flat enough to reflect sunlight sometimes, and produce only a fragmented image of the terrain behind the soldier. Maybe the microscopic cells you suggest would work better, but I'm not sure such tech even exists, and if it does, it would be even more expensive.

Maybe in the near future, though.

 

[wuliheron]

The only real practical invisibility camoflage for the forseeable future is for stealth aircraft and ships.

The simpliest way to be invisible is just not to be there. The military already has fly sized video cameras, robotic snakes, and who-knows-what in the works. The next generation of aircraft will theoretically be mostly remote control whether invisible or not.

 

[Eyesee]

An aircraft or ship invisible to the naked eye is worthless.

 

[wuliheron]

What you don't see can hurt you.

 

[Astrophysics]

Originally posted by Mentat
This is what I'm told the new 007 car is like.

Really?...maybe I should go and work for Q then

 

[Astrophysics]

Originally posted by LURCH
This approach has been explored by the US Army.

Hmmm...or maybe I should go and workk for the US Army...

 

[Zero]

There is no possible way to create complete invisibility that is also useful, although you could theoretically get awfully close. The problem is, if you are completely invisible, you cannot see! If you allow light to pass around or through you, no light will reach your eyes. If you absord all light, you will appear black. And if you are simply projecting images for the illusion if invisibility, you will still have a heat signature which can be picked up.

 

[LURCH]

Having given the millitary's approach further consideration, I notice a new possibility. Another project under development for the millitary is the powered armor suit. It would be safe to assume that this suit, when developed, will be as stealthy as DARPA can make it. It will probably have features to decrease its heat and radar signature as much as possible. But the projection method of invisibility would also be made easier by the adbvent of such a combat vehicle. This suit would not require the flexibility of a camo uniform, and so the flat screens with flexible joints between them could be illiminated. The position of each part of the suit's surface is far more predictable, making projection easier and more realistic in appearence.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Zero
There is no possible way to create complete invisibility that is also useful, although you could theoretically get awfully close. The problem is, if you are completely invisible, you cannot see! If you allow light to pass around or through you, no light will reach your eyes. If you absord all light, you will appear black. And if you are simply projecting images for the illusion if invisibility, you will still have a heat signature which can be picked up.

Yes, I'd considered this, and that's why the "invisibility suit" wouldn't necessarily make you invisible, but rather make it so that all others can see is your surroundings. It would also help to have the typical "stealth" features (undetectability by radar and the like).

 

[Nereid]

... simply projecting images for the illusion if invisibility

Here's a challenge: how do you know where to project images to (if it's just this kind of illusory invisibility you are after)?

If you want to appear invisible to observers 'at infinity', a 'light pass-through' arrangement might work; if the observers are close, there's no way you can project images to all possible observers without some parallax problems arising for at least some observers (and if you don' t know where they are, you can't correct for this). Of course, that's not a problem if you're in a blizzard, but then a nice white camo kit would do the trick just as well.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Nereid
Here's a challenge: how do you know where to project images to (if it's just this kind of illusory invisibility you are after)?

If you want to appear invisible to observers 'at infinity', a 'light pass-through' arrangement might work...

Check out Zero's post, he addresses the "light pass-through" possibility.

...if the observers are close, there's no way you can project images to all possible observers without some parallax problems arising for at least some observers (and if you don' t know where they are, you can't correct for this).\

But what if you had a small computer in each "projector", which calculated the distance between you and observers, and thus compensated for differences in PoV?

 

[Nereid]

But what if you had a small computer in each "projector", which calculated the distance between you and observers, and thus compensated for differences in PoV?

The computer would have to know the distance to all objects in the field of view (of the soldier), to even begin to eliminate parallax.

Further, each 'projector' would need to emit through a full ~ 2[pi] steradians, across the whole of the visible spectrum (and into the IR, thank you Zero), with an angular resolution of no more than ~5 arcmin, a response time of <0.1s, and a dynamic range of >5 orders of magnitude.

... and we haven't started to specify the detectors.

Hmm, not your average movie cinema projector; not your average PC.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Nereid
The computer would have to know the distance to all objects in the field of view (of the soldier), to even begin to eliminate parallax.

Further, each 'projector' would need to emit through a full ~ 2&pi steradians, across the whole of the visible spectrum (and into the IR, thank you Zero), with an angular resolution of no more than ~5 arcmin, a response time of <0.1s, and a dynamic range of >5 orders of magnitude.

... and we haven't started to specify the detectors.

Hmm, not your average movie cinema projector; not your average PC.

I concede that you are most likely right. I don't the folks that make 007 movies really cared much, but for practical application this is certainly a barrier.

 

[TENYEARS]

I believe such thing is possible from the person who says they do not believe. It has to do with what gravity is. I also believe it is possible for a human being to become invisible under the correct circumstances. What zero said of light is true from a normal classical situations. There are some situations which are not beyond classical, but which are yet to be defined but do exist. When you understand this you will know it is possible.

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
I believe such thing is possible from the person who says they do not believe. It has to do with what gravity is. I also believe it is possible for a human being to become invisible under the correct circumstances. What zero said of light is true from a normal classical situations. There are some situations which are not beyond classical, but which are yet to be defined but do exist. When you understand this you will know it is possible.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate please?

 

[TENYEARS]

Originally posted by Nereid
Would you be so kind as to elaborate please?

I would like to, but now is not the time and maybe there will never be a time. If you want the truth or the answer to a question there is only one way there has always and always will be one way. The paths may look different on the outside, but there is and only will be one way to answer this question or any question. What you should ask yourself is what am I really interested in? This question? The result of the question? Collecting marbles? The human mind is a trickster.

 

[instntpudn]

So I just wanted to let all of you pessimists know that I am in progress of developing the first FULLY spectrum invisible suit. With the new advances in OLED technology the quality, architecture and manufacturability of a REAL invisible suit now seem closer than ever. Inspired by good old Wiley Coyote I plan to have a working CAD model by the end of this year. Questions, comments or constructive or useful critisism or any experience working with OLED email scott_mcq@hotmail.com.

 

[benzun_1999]

Invisibility is suerly possible.........

Look at coal, it is a allotrope of Carbon and it is black and absorbs light but have a look at diamond it is also a allotrope of Carbon but it allows light to pass through. So taking this as an example we can find a way to invisibility.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by benzun_1999
Look at coal, it is a allotrope of Carbon and it is black and absorbs light but have a look at diamond it is also a allotrope of Carbon but it allows light to pass through. So taking this as an example we can find a way to invisibility.

But, if we discover a way to let light pass through us, we may become invisible but we will also become blind. See Zero's previous post in this thread.

 

[Rybo]

Dark matter may be more correctly defined as "the missing light"

Fred Holy had suggested that microbes in intterstellar space are --biologic clouds of dust-- abosbing much of the missing light instead of reflecting it or letting it pass throught us.

Asorbing the light as a carbon allatope(SP) does not really work. Allowing light to pass though does.

We need to chang our chemistry so that our frequenices do to interfere with the light.

What frequencies of EMRadiation this would be i cannot say for sure other than to guess that any frequcnies other than that of visible light i.e. between the very narrow 450 and 650 nano meters and probablyaway from those nearset to light i.e. heat(infra-red) and ultra-violet.

Then next problem becomes maintaing the integrity of our biologic pattern as EMR in location that is equanimous to where a visible bdoy would be.

Not very likely is my best guess.

Rybo

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by instntpudn
So I just wanted to let all of you pessimists know that I am in progress of developing the first FULLY spectrum invisible suit. With the new advances in OLED technology the quality, architecture and manufacturability of a REAL invisible suit now seem closer than ever. Inspired by good old Wiley Coyote I plan to have a working CAD model by the end of this year. Questions, comments or constructive or useful critisism or any experience working with OLED email scott_mcq@hotmail.com.

Organic Light Emitting Diode material may be one part of the 'emitter' component of such a suit; what will you be doing for the detector components?

IIRC, OLED materials have some way to go wrt dynamic range and response time before they'd start to be useful. Also, it's hard to see how they could be architected to address the parallax issues.

 

[Nereid]

you can still see a glass object!

Originally posted by benzun_1999
Look at coal, it is a allotrope of Carbon and it is black and absorbs light but have a look at diamond it is also a allotrope of Carbon but it allows light to pass through. So taking this as an example we can find a way to invisibility.

Glass, shrink wrap, and water are, to us humans, transparent. However, if you make an object from either of these, they are still very visible! The visibility of transparent materials arises from the fact that their index of refraction is not the same as that of the air in which we see them. You're not suggesting that we could turn a human into a colourless gas?

 

[jeremyb]

Invisiblility-->US Army

I saw a little documantary on the discovery channel a few years ago where they showed this technology on a tank. It was pretty cool. It looked like the kind of object that one sees blured in the distance in a hot desert.

 

[Allday]

I think the way to go would have to be a bending light method and not a projector method. If a person could be wrapped from head to toe (not including their eyes) in a material that bent light around them, an invisibility effect could happen. Are there fiber optic cables that work with all frequencies of visible light? And if so what about an entire suit in which the cables were arranged so that the openings were on opposite sides of the suit.

Gabriel

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Allday
I think the way to go would have to be a bending light method and not a projector method. If a person could be wrapped from head to toe (not including their eyes) in a material that bent light around them, an invisibility effect could happen. Are there fiber optic cables that work with all frequencies of visible light? And if so what about an entire suit in which the cables were arranged so that the openings were on opposite sides of the suit.

Gabriel

In this case, Allday, you have the following problems:

1) Bent light produces a sort of "shadow" image, and so you wouldn't be invisible.

2) Your eyes would be visible, unless you bent the light in front of them, and then you would be blind.

 

[TENYEARS]

You build a high frequency sonar device with digital display infront of your eyes.

 

[cassiopeiae]

Since all physical forms give off energy, would it be possible to develop a device to counter act these frequencies (not sure if that's the correct term). Almost like a cloaking device...trick the observer into not seeing? I was reading these posts and thought back to the old tales of Native American invisibility. There are stories of them being able to control their own personal energy in order to diminish the amount projected so they could have a successful hunt, or spy on a rival. I'm not sure I believe it is true or not, but it made me wonder if such a device could be possible, or if science even has a way to measure the energy levels of form (aside from heat signature) and the relationship to reflection of light?

 

[selfAdjoint]

We see others by the light that is scattered off them. Light has not only frequency (color) but phase. The trick would be to match each scattered photon with a generated photon exactly 180^o out of phase with it. Then the two would cancel. No scattered light and therefore invisibility. This need not interfere with your body processes that use absorbed photons - like seeing - since those photons are by definition not scattered.

To do that your body would have to infer the phase of scattered photons. I don't know how it could do that but maybe somebody else has an idea?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
We see others by the light that is scattered off them. Light has not only frequency (color) but phase. The trick would be to match each scattered photon with a generated photon exactly 180^o out of phase with it. Then the two would cancel. No scattered light and therefore invisibility. This need not interfere with your body processes that use absorbed photons - like seeing - since those photons are by definition not scattered.

Ah, good point. The photons don't scatter, if their absorbed by the retina...but, I see other people's eyes...so, only some scatter and others don't? How could you possibly stop only those that scatter?

 

[LURCH]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
We see others by the light that is scattered off them. Light has not only frequency (color) but phase. The trick would be to match each scattered photon with a generated photon exactly 180^o out of phase with it. Then the two would cancel. No scattered light and therefore invisibility. This need not interfere with your body processes that use absorbed photons - like seeing - since those photons are by definition not scattered.

To do that your body would have to infer the phase of scattered photons. I don't know how it could do that but maybe somebody else has an idea?

But wouldn't that leave a big pitch-black outline where you stand? If the photons that would have bounced off your body are canceled out by matching, phase-inverted photons, the impact on an observers retina would add up to zero, yes? And zero photonic impact on the retina = total darkness. So these photons, which are not allowed to travel past, around, or through your body are therefore never reflected off other objects "behind" you (from the observer's point of view), and the observer still sees the objects as being blocked by the silhouette of your body.

 

[jringwald]

Originally posted by Astrophysics
Here's an idea...you have a suit with microscobic cells, some of these cells absorb light some are light sources, those which absorb the light give the information (colours, intesity, etc.) to other cells on the other side of this suit. So if you look at a person with this suit on you'll see what you would see if this person wasn't there.
Naturally this is only theory and hardly practicle.

Instead of focusing on the object that is to be invisible. Maybe, focus on what is viewing the object (Or, maybe both). Find a way to alter the viewing mechanism. Poking the eye out is on the right track, but the viewing mechanism would be aware of this process.

Example: A large percentage of people wear glasses or contacts. What if the lenses could filter out certain components of light that where also being produced by the "microscopic cells". This is just one example, but I think the key is to focus on all of elements involved in the process of "being invisible".

Invisibility is in the eye of the beholder -- Joel A. Ringwald

 

[Nereid]

Human visability

Seems to me that Astrophysics and jringwald are on the right track.

The human visual system (shared by most mammals? animals??) has some hard-wired, low level processing capabilities - static parts of what's seen are filtered down (so 'motion' is immediately noticable), edges trigger special signals, etc. That's how low-tech invisibility (a.k.a. camouflage) works.

So a faster, cheaper, better path to an invisibility suit (than what's been the subject of most posts in this thread) may be ways to achieve better camouflage:
- more 'realist' mimicry of natural backgrounds (colours, patterns)
- better disguise of movement

 

[goscott4]

Here It Is...

http://www.chameleo.net/news.html

Just happened upon this fourm, and it seems that I did not see the US Patent mentioned.

Surprise! The suit is better than you can ever imagine! In a room in a your house with normal light, it is "impossible" to tell if someone is there with you.

BUT this suit is really NO big deal, it's being used by ALL police departments in the US. It's the other componet that comes with the suit that will blow your mind! Any comments?

 

[StarkyDee]

that is a great site goscott4.. so if i have this idea right..if you could mimick the radiation of heat energy produced from an object and convert it into light waves--a suit could be used just like the skin of a chameleon, in which it responds to the amount of heat or temperature. adaptive camo-technology--that is awesome..

 

[Kaerous]

First of all, I am 16, so don't take any of my theories too serious, this is just my thoughts from reading the majority of the posts on this thread...

I think the whole agrument rests on the meaning of invisibility. I see some of you take it literally while others take it as an advanced stealth. I believe a suit that could even make a blurred image of the surroundings where the wearer is (sorry, that was choppy) would greatly decrease the chance of being seen. I don't think it is anywhere practical to send an agent like 007 into a high security enemy base and sneak around undetected because of his invisible suit. It is, however, practical to have a distorted image of a soldier when he's near an enemy (say, 100 yards) or maybe even for a sniper. Prehaps even a blanket of some sort could be used by a sniper...if a photograph of a lot of ground could be transferred into the blanket it could be laid over the user and a create a camo that could adapt to any environment. This wouldn't allow for grealy mobile camoflauge, but never the less it would only help out. I think we need to take some small steps in this field instead of shooting for the complete invisible suit like on Die Another Day.

Also, on the argument of sight for the wearer, if the tiny little itsy bitsy cameras can project an image that they see onto the other side, what's to stop them from projecting a second image into some type of eye piece for the user, say a thin pair of glasses or maybe even a pair of contact lenses, however crazy that sounds, lol.

Thanks for wading though all that, if you did...

Email me at kyle14g@hotmail.com if you want to chat privately!

Thanks for the time,

 

[TARSIER]

Stealth

I hope someone hasnt mentioned this yet ( I have only read 2 pages of this so far), but the designer of the stealth bomber was asked a question by top United States Military Leaders " How do you make something invisible?". His answer being, "You have to alter the planes." And so the planes of the Stealth Bomber are very different from the angles on other planes. I wonder if this could be applied to an invisibility suit. Like someone said, Making something invisible to the naked eye is worthless, this could be applied to a "projection suit" and therefore made "invisible".

 

[TARSIER]

Another thing:

I also am 16, so do not take my post as seriously as you would have I been an adult.
Also, please respond to my post. Comments? Suggestions?

 

[selfAdjoint]

The planes technology was first concieved by a soviet mathematician "back in the USSR". He reasoned that if you could get the reflected rays of a radar beam bouncing around in just the right way, they would interfere with each other and, after the manner of waves, destroy the return signal, so the radar would never see the aircraft. The mathematician figured how to do that with flat planes arranged at carefully calculated angles.

After the fall of the USSR, the technology came to the US, and was applied and improved. The basis of the whole thing though, is that there is only one radar beam looking at you. Sort of like being illuminated by a single penlight in pitch blackness. If you can frustrate that one beam, you're home free.

As you can see, the same thing wouldn't work in the open daylight, with light coming at you from all sides.

But I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some engineer hasn't built a stealth kit car that is invisible to police radar.

 

[MythioS]

Just as with anything else i think the identification of what the original 'post'er meant by invisibility is the question.

Personally I don't agree with the direction leaning towards the alteration of perception. In theory it sounds great but we all don't percieve things the same way. At best i think the hopes would be something like a hilucinagen that could maybe confuse you enough not to care that the person is visible but to ever actually make someone invisible through that means is like trying to take the experiment out of the lab. The conditions are no longer going to be the same and from the get go your already at a deficit in your research.

 

[alias25]

i don if it's true (it could be a lie)
i heard that some time ago don't know where
but some scientist managed to make some of the skin of
a mouse (or was it a guinie pig) invisible
by injecting something into it
it was only the skin so you could still see
it's inside.

 

[Mk]

When I was reading PREY by Micheal Chrichton (I love his books) I formulated my own theory with no help just like the microbe thing a cloth of nanorobots, every other one is a reciver that recives the light and sends it to a picture thingy nanorobot that is like a LED, it projects its share of the scenery around it. So when you look at someone wearing the cloak you see a projected picture of the other side of the cloak. For the person wearing the cloak there are LED nanobots covering the inside projecting a picture of what it looks like outside so the person can see outside

By da way: How do those black fabrics covering a face when wearing a halloween costume work, you can't see in but you can see out.

 

[Dayle Record]

The way that things will be made invisible, will be to use microwave to skull transmissions, that tell the looker, they can't see the object. Much like Obi Wan Kenobe, says those aren't the droids you are looking for. That is the cheapest, and most likely method.