H-theorem and conservation of the Gibbs entropy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the reconciliation of Boltzmann's H-theorem and the conservation of Gibbs entropy, exploring the definitions and implications of different entropy formulations in thermodynamics and statistical mechanics. Participants examine the behavior of entropy in systems not in thermodynamic equilibrium and the distinctions between fine-grained and coarse-grained Gibbs entropy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes Boltzmann's H-theorem, stating that entropy grows until equilibrium is reached if a system is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
  • Another participant notes that Gibbs entropy, defined as the integral of W*logW over phase space, is a constant of motion, independent of thermodynamic equilibrium, as per the Liouville equation.
  • A participant provides references for further reading on the differences between Gibbs and Boltzmann entropies, although they clarify that these references focus on equilibrium calculations, which do not directly address their question.
  • One participant suggests that Gibbs entropy involves coarse graining over finite volumes of phase space, proposing that it is a sum rather than an integral.
  • Another participant distinguishes between fine-grained and coarse-grained Gibbs entropy, asserting that fine-grained entropy is a constant of motion while coarse-grained entropy is not.
  • A participant illustrates the relationship between fine-grained and coarse-grained volumes in phase space, explaining how the former remains constant while the latter increases, relating this to the concept of entropy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of Gibbs entropy and its relationship to Boltzmann's H-theorem. There is no consensus on how these concepts reconcile, and multiple competing interpretations are present.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves assumptions about the definitions of entropy and the conditions under which they apply, particularly regarding equilibrium and the treatment of phase space.

alexV
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My understanding of the Boltzmann's H-theorem is that if a set of a large number of colliding bolls is not in the thermodynamical equilibrium (i.e. the probability distribution function W doesn't obey the Maxwell distribution), its entropy will grow (without supplying heat) until the equilibrium is reached. On the other hand, the Gibbs entropy defined as the integral of W*logW over all phase space is a constant of motion regardless of the system being in thermodynamic equilibrium or not (the latter is a direct consequence of the Liouville equation). How does this two statements reconcile?
 
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alexV said:
On the other hand, the Gibbs entropy defined as the integral of W*logW over all phase space is a constant of motion regardless of the system being in thermodynamic equilibrium or not
Not an answer to your question, but please tell me where can I learn it. I want to know the two ways of entropy
k_B \ln W, -k_B \Sigma_i p_i \ln p_i
clearly.
 
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Although my question is not about difference between definition of entropies, I can still provide a few references:
1. E.T. Jaynes, "Gibbs vs Boltzmann Entropies", Am. J. Physics, v. 33, 391 (1965); doi: 10.1119/1.1971557
2. R.H. Swendsen, J.-S. Wang, " The Gibbs "volume" entropy is incorrect", atXiv: 1506.0691 1v1 [cond-mat.stat_mech] 23 Jun 2015.
3. P. Buonsante, R. Franzosi, A. Smerzi, "On the dispute between Boltzmann and Gibbs entropy", Annals of Physics, 375 (2016), 414-434; doi 10.1016/j.aop.2016.10.017.
These papers, however, seems to be concerned with calculation of entropies at the thermodynamic equilibrium; this has no bearing to my question.
 
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alexV said:
On the other hand, the Gibbs entropy defined as the integral of W*logW over all phase space is a constant of motion regardless of the system being in thermodynamic equilibrium or not (the latter is a direct consequence of the Liouville equation).

Gibbs entropy undertakes coarse graining by finite small volumes of phase space, not integral but sum, I think. Volume unit of h^3N from QM corresponds to it.
 
The key is to distinguish fine grained Gibbs entropy from coarse grained Gibbs entropy. The former is a constant of motion. The latter isn't.
 
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The picture illustrates how the fine grained volume (in phase space) remains the same during the evolution, while the coarse grained volume increases. Thinking of Gibbs entropy as the logarithm of volume in phase space, this explains how the fine grained entropy remains the same, while the coarse grained entropy increases.


coarse_graining.jpeg
 
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