Has acupuncture or cupping been proven to work?

[Identity]

Has acupuncture or cupping been proven to work?

 

[DavidSnider]

Proven to work at what?

The effects of acupuncture and cupping are essentially the placebo effect + the added benefit of the mild pain releasing endorphins.

 

[Identity]

I dunno, things like for instance relieving an illness, cold or fever. You know how in chinese medical clinics you will see those charts on the walls with all these special 'points' on the human body. Apparently the theory goes something like this. If these specials 'points' on your body are blocked, you will become sick. Acupunture is meant to allow energy to flow through these points. Are these just lymph nodes? Does it even matter where they stick the needles?
This is from a fairly old chinese tradition though. I think it would be really weird if for hundreds, maybe a thousand years they had been practicing healing which had no use at all.

 

[DavidSnider]

I didn't say it had no use at all. I said it utilizes the placebo effect and releases endorphins. So it does work temporarily, but does not cure illness or pain, but does provide temporary relief.

 

[f95toli]

I didn't say it had no use at all. I said it utilizes the placebo effect and releases endorphins. So it does work temporarily, but does not cure illness or pain, but does provide temporary relief.

There is more the acupuncture than placebo and temporary endorphin release. I agree that many of the claims about the effects of acupuncture are nonsense. However, it is -as far as I know- now reasonably well established that acupuncture can have a long lasting effects on certain types (but not all) of chronic pain; e.g. rheumatic pains, headaches etc.
Note that acupuncture is still -as far as we know- only a way of activating the body's own natural pain-relief systems; but for some reason the effects seems to last much longer than one would expect if it was just due to endorphin release.
I read somewhere that a session of acupuncture seems to have the same effect as an intensive workout; both lead to long-lasting changes in the nervous systems (meaning some people could presumably just take up e.g. running instead)

 

[CEL]

This is from a fairly old chinese tradition though. I think it would be really weird if for hundreds, maybe a thousand years they had been practicing healing which had no use at all.

The theory of humors was born in Egypt or Mesopotamia and adopted by the Greeks around 400 BCE.
These beliefs were the foundation of mainstream Western medicine well into the 1800s.
Only after Pasteur did the Western medicine begin to abandon those ideas. Bloodletting was abandoned in the XIX century, but the use of enemas, to eliminate excess bile permeated to the XX century.
So, a useless healing practice has lasted more then 2000 years.
Hanneman postulated that you could balance the 4 humors by taking very diluted portions of some substances, instead of bloodletting and enemas. No wonder homeopathy had such a success. Doing nothing is much better than using invasive therapies against a debilitated organism.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Proven to work at what?

The effects of acupuncture and cupping are essentially the placebo effect + the added benefit of the mild pain releasing endorphins.

We need a source for definitive claims; ie a published paper, not a skeptics site.

 

[DavidSnider]

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13638.html

"Endorphin release, stimulation of the peripheral nervous system, and pain mediation through the effects of other neuropeptides are currently thought to be the most likely conventional explanations for the effects of acupuncture."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That will work. Thanks.

 

[DavidSnider]

Also,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17893311

Which shows that sham acupuncture worked nearly as well as real acupuncture and twice as well as conventional therapy. Which indicates to me a placebo effect.

 

[mgb_phys]

Placebos always struck me as one of medicines great inventions - certainly cheaper, more effective and safer than most drugs.

Theres a great talk by James Randi (on the authors@google series) where he mentions a meeting with a Chinese doctor who was a properly qualified GP but also had acupuncture charts all over his office.
He was asked if he believed they worked.
Oh yes, a lot of the patients who come to me don't really have anything wrong with them and acupuncture makes them feel better. Much better than just giving them anti depressants or antibiotics to make them go away

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Again this gets back to the mechanism of the placebo effect, and esp the "strong placebo effect", which as far as I know is a mystery. We have some links in the Credible Anomalies Thread.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=58374

 

[statdad]

No, it hasn't been proven to be anything but a scam, just as homeopathic "cures" and other, similar things.
The studies show these things:
1) There is no long-lasting medical benefit from acupuncture. People claim to feel better after a treatment, but there is no medical change
2) The claimed "improvement" referred to in my '1' is not any different than that obtained by controls - hence the reference to placebo
3) The latest studies use both the "real" acupuncture and a "fake" acupuncture - the needles in the latter look real but do not actually penetrate the skin. There is no difference between the subject perceptions between the two
4) The "benefits" of acupuncture are claimed by patients EVEN WHEN THE NEEDLES, REAL OR FAKE, are applied to purely random sites - locations having nothing to do with the mythical areas the "ancient Chinese cure" claims are vital to health

It has also come to light that many of the regions practitioners select for their needles were first written down in the mid 1800s - hardly ancient.

When you read scientific studies of acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal cures, etc., they all read the same: no benefit, no possible explanation for why they would work in the first place, and seemingly no end to the number of people willing to waste money on them.

 

[mgb_phys]

When you read scientific studies of acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal cures, etc., they all read the same: no benefit, no possible explanation for why they would work in the first place, and seemingly no end to the number of people willing to waste money on them.

To be fair the same thing can be said for most prescribed antidepressants http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7263494.stm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

When you read scientific studies of acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal cures, etc., they all read the same: no benefit, no possible explanation for why they would work in the first place, and seemingly no end to the number of people willing to waste money on them.

While I appreciate your point, I do take issue with your reference to herbal cures given that many modern drugs [at one time all drugs] are derived from plants and other natural sources.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

To be fair the same thing can be said for most prescribed antidepressants http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7263494.stm

Now I'm depressed.

 

[statdad]

You'll note that I did not say that every medicine on the market is as effective as its promotions would imply. The study mentioned examined several (around 50, I believe) previous studies of anti-depressants, and found middling and lower benefit from their continued use.
It should be pointed out that (and the researchers did so) that this type of study is best suited for developing new hypotheses from old data; studies specifically addressing the issue remain to be done. (I think they will support these initial results, but we must wait for the data).

About the herbal comment - I stand by it. The fact that tested and proven medications may have some link to plants in no way qualifies them as herbal. Despite the best wishes of our (U.S.) commission on alternative medicine, and other, more fringe, organizations, whenever the herbal "remedies" are put to the test they are found lacking.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

About the herbal comment - I stand by it. The fact that tested and proven medications may have some link to plants in no way qualifies them as herbal. Despite the best wishes of our (U.S.) commission on alternative medicine, and other, more fringe, organizations, whenever the herbal "remedies" are put to the test they are found lacking.

Many modern medicines were once herbal remedies. Your positition is that every herbal remedy not yet recognized as a modern medicine has been shown to be ineffective, or will be, which simply isn't true.

The father of modern medicine was Hippocrates, who lived sometime between 460 B.C and 377 B.C. Hippocrates was left historical records of pain relief treatments, including the use of powder made from the bark and leaves of the willow tree to help heal headaches, pains and fevers.

By 1829, scientists discovered that it was the compound called salicin in willow plants which gave you the pain relief

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blaspirin.htm

Scurvy:

It was described by Hippocrates (c. 460 BC–c. 380 BC). Herbal cures for scurvy have been known in many native cultures since prehistory. In 1536, the French explorer Jacques Cartier, exploring the St. Lawrence River, used the local natives' knowledge to save his men who were dying of scurvy. He boiled the needles of the arbor vitae tree (Eastern White Cedar) to make a tea that was later shown to contain 50 mg of vitamin C per 100 grams.[1][2] Such treatments were not available aboard ship, where the disease was most common. It was a Scottish surgeon in the British Royal Navy, James Lind who first proved it could be treated with citrus fruit in experiments he described in his 1753 book, A Treatise of the Scurvy.[3]

In infants, scurvy is sometimes referred to as Barlow's disease, named after Sir Thomas Barlow,[4] a British physician who described it. (N.B. Barlow's disease may also refer to mitral valve prolapse.) Other eponyms include Moeller's disease and Cheadle's disease

- wiki

Artemisinin and the antimalarial endoperoxides: from herbal remedy to targeted chemotherapy

http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/2/301

The Chinese anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive herbal remedy Tripterygium wilfordii Hook F.

Various preparations of Tripterygium wilfordii Hook F (TwHF) have been used in the treatment of a number of autoimmune and inflammatory diseases since the 1960s. Accumulated data from the clinical trials suggest efficacy of this treatment in a number of rheumatic diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis and systemic lupus erythematosus. Studies on the relationship of the chemical components of TwHF and its immunosuppressive and anti-inflammatory effects suggest that diterpenoid compounds with epoxide groups account for the therapeutic effects of this herbal remedy. This herbal remedy is therefore a unique and powerful alternative therapy for autoimmune and inflammatory diseases.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10680192

Chinese Herbal Remedy Wogonin Inhibits Monocyte Chemotactic Protein-1 Gene Expression in Human Endothelial Cells

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/3/507

A clinical trial of 'AM', a Ugandan herbal remedy for malaria

...Results No severe adverse reactions were observed, although about 50 per cent experienced minor side-effects. Although complete parasite clearance was achieved in only one case, the geometric mean of parasite counts had declined significantly by day 7. There was also a marked symptomatic improvement in 17 of the 19 patients.

http://jpubhealth.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/3/318

There are many more examples.

 

[Proton Soup]

There is more the acupuncture than placebo and temporary endorphin release. I agree that many of the claims about the effects of acupuncture are nonsense. However, it is -as far as I know- now reasonably well established that acupuncture can have a long lasting effects on certain types (but not all) of chronic pain; e.g. rheumatic pains, headaches etc.
Note that acupuncture is still -as far as we know- only a way of activating the body's own natural pain-relief systems; but for some reason the effects seems to last much longer than one would expect if it was just due to endorphin release.
I read somewhere that a session of acupuncture seems to have the same effect as an intensive workout; both lead to long-lasting changes in the nervous systems (meaning some people could presumably just take up e.g. running instead)

i too think there is something to it, for treatment of things like myofascial trigger points.

 

[statdad]

Evidence that acupuncture has efficacy to do anything except enrich the coffers of those who perform does not exist.

Again, saying some medicines have ties to plants/herbs is not to say that they were "herbal remedies".

I would also point out that the jury is out on the validity of some of the "studies" that are repeatedly quoted: they suffer the same lack of quality the "intercessional prayer" studies did. The prayer studies were published in high-quality journals, and have been retracted; I would be amazed if the herbal studies are not as well.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Frankly, you seem unduly biased against the herbal bit. There are many popular and even ancient herbal treatments that are shams, but to say that all herbal remedies, now or ever, are bogus, is simply not true. If you have evidence that the linked information is wrong, please provide credible links. Unfounded personal opinions are not evidence.

 

[statdad]

Not biased - honest. Study after study is debunking these claims - the burden of proof is on the pushers of this "alternative" medicine, and they are failing miserably.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I already posted information but you are simply ignoring it. Intentionally false statements are not tolerated.

While I applaud the debunking of shams and false product claims, and while I agree that many herbal cures and treatments are shams, I think your objections to this subject are too broad. The efficacy of plants and herbs for medical treatments is a historic fact. Given the span of different plants that exist in the world, there is almost certainly much more to be learned. Does this mean that I run to the store to buy echinacea when I get a cold? Of course not.

 

[fabsuk]

What i see a lot of is people giving logical explanations as to why it doesn't work
on physical grounds which is rather biased.

You can't touch western medicine because it is in the hands of authority and they all go agree with each other.

If you disprove a theory then your new theory becomes all of a sudden logical.

Hence why many logical arguments are actually false.

 

[statdad]

No, the grounds aren't biased: the grounds are science. There are claims routinely made for acupuncture, and it routinely fails. Even the most recent study found "classical" acupuncture to be no better than randomly poking people with sticks. The little "benefit" that was found was, according to the authors, well within the bounds of measurement error. The only people who benefit from this crap are those selling it - it can't be any more clear: acupuncture is a scam.

 

[Carid]

Bloodletting was abandoned in the XIX century

Bloodletting is still in use as a treatment for people with too much iron in the blood.

BTW there's quite a lot more to Chinese traditional medicine than acupuncture.

 

[CEL]

Bloodletting is still in use as a treatment for people with too much iron in the blood.

BTW there's quite a lot more to Chinese traditional medicine than acupuncture.

Yes, and enemas are still in limited use. But this does not validate the theory of the four humors.
In the same way, the fact that acupuncture may relieve pain in certain cases, does not validate the theory of the meridians or of chi.
We know now that diseases are caused by various factors, but not by unbalance of the humors or by blocking of the flux of an inexistent chi through inexistent meridians.
The antiquity of a belief does not mean it is true.

 

[Carid]

CEL

I agree with everything you say. While the theoretical underpinnings of Chinese medicine seem flakey in the extreme, it is still part of a wider world-view which tends to promote vigorous old age. The words "baby" and "bathwater" come to mind.

 

[alxm]

CEL

I agree with everything you say. While the theoretical underpinnings of Chinese medicine seem flakey in the extreme, it is still part of a wider world-view which tends to promote vigorous old age.

What?
The Chinese do not have a particularly long life expectancy. Either now or historically.

Chinese medicine is nothing but old superstition. Neither the fact that it's exotic and Asian, or the fact that it's old, has any real meaning credibility-wise. It's a stupid superstition that not only, on the whole, has had little effect on human health, it has had an incredibly destructive effect on nature, having driven some species to extinction and many more to the brink of it in pursuit of 'remedies' that do nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, the sooner it's destroyed, the better.

 

[Carid]

What?
The Chinese do not have a particularly long life expectancy. Either now or historically.

Chinese medicine is nothing but old superstition. Neither the fact that it's exotic and Asian, or the fact that it's old, has any real meaning credibility-wise. It's a stupid superstition that not only, on the whole, has had little effect on human health, it has had an incredibly destructive effect on nature, having driven some species to extinction and many more to the brink of it in pursuit of 'remedies' that do nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, the sooner it's destroyed, the better.

I never said they have a particularly long life expectancy; I spoke of vigour in old age.
Western medicine has done its fair share of destruction too. I hope you don't live in one of those areas where the recycled water supply is contaminated with birth-control hormones and blood-pressure treatments...
For me, the Far East is anything but exotic; I lived there a long time. People there are under no illusion about the usefulness or otherwise of their traditional pharmacopoeia. They go to see the Western doctor far more often than the traditional one; but when they've got some stubborn problem, they enjoy the comfort of going back to an older form of treatment. And sometimes it works.
You want to destroy something? Start with ignorance - yours, mine, everybody's.

 

[chayced]

I really get sick of the bad name herbal medicine gets. Most modern pharmaceuticals have herbal/natural roots. Yes we refine them and concentrate them, but that doesn't make the original substance worthless or a sham. If a plant was found tomorrow that could cure cancer when eaten it would be claimed as a sham right up until its refined form was patented.

As for the burden of proof and scams, sure nobody is going to make enough money on these things to pay for irrefutable studies. Sure there are scam artists out there who sell vitamins and make outrageous claims. There are also scam artists who sell pills for outrageous prices with the claim that they will fix everything. We call them pharmaceutical corporations.

As for acupuncture, I have no direct experience but I will admit the plausibility of a working connection. I still have no clue why my sinuses clear up when I do yoga, but it works. There are so many things we still don't know.