Heating water in a long container

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the thermal dynamics of heating water in a long, closed cylinder under pressure. Participants explore how to calculate the increase in pressure due to heating and the volume of water that needs to be vented through a relief valve to manage pressure changes. The context includes theoretical and practical considerations of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where water is in a compressed state and heated, leading to an increase in pressure, and poses questions about calculating this increase and the necessary venting volume.
  • Another participant suggests that the pressure increase is due to the thermal expansion of water, providing a formula for volume change based on temperature change and the thermal expansion coefficient.
  • A later reply clarifies that the water is at supercritical pressures, indicating that it will not boil regardless of heat addition, and seeks guidance on venting volume determination.
  • Further, a participant outlines a method for calculating pressure increase based on energy added and enthalpy, referencing steam tables for pressure determination, and discusses the need to account for the cylinder's material properties in calculations.
  • Another contribution emphasizes the importance of knowing the initial pressure and enthalpy to determine the mass of water that must be vented to return to initial pressure, suggesting a segmented approach for long cylinders to account for temperature gradients.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the specifics of calculating pressure increases and venting volumes, with no consensus reached on the best approach or methodology. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the precise calculations and assumptions involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various assumptions, such as the cylinder's material properties and the constant volume of water, which may affect the calculations. The discussion also highlights the complexity introduced by temperature gradients in long cylinders.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to engineers and physicists involved in fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, and system design, particularly in contexts involving pressurized systems and thermal management.

skywalker09
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This is an oversimplification of a practical problem I am currently trying to design for. Suppose, we have a very long cylinder closed at both ends which contains water at a given pressure P1 and temperature T1.

P1 and T1 are such that water is in a compressed state (subcooled). One end of the vessel is heated slowly. The cylinder is sufficiently long so that there is temperature gradient within the volume of water inside the cylinder. As one can imagine the pressure of water increases.

1. How to determine the increase in pressure?

Additionally, a relief valve is provided. The valve opens to relieve pressure once the pressure reaches P2.

2. How much volume will need to be vented to relieve the built up pressure?
 
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Well, assuming you don't heat the water past it's boiling point, then the additional pressure inside of the tube is due to the expansion of an incompressible material. In this case water is the material. Just like heating up a metal to make it expand, if you heat up a liquid, it will have a slight change in it volume.

The equation governing this is:

[tex]\Delta V = \beta V_0 \Delta T[/tex]

where [tex]\Delta T[/tex] is the change in temperature, [tex]\Delta V[/tex] is the change in volume, [tex]V_0[/tex] is the initial volume, and [tex]\beta[/tex] is the thermal expansion coefficient of the system.

The thermal expansion coefficient for water is [tex]\beta = 207*10^{-6} m^3/K[/tex].
 
Thank you, jpreed.

The water is already pressurized to supercritical pressures. That is, no amount of heat addition or temperature rise will boil it off.

How should I determine the volume of water to be vented?
 
skywalker09 said:
1. How to determine the increase in pressure?

Assuming that the cylinder itself (ie, the pipe) doesn't stretch, the volume is constant. If it doesn't leak, the mass is also constant. So, you know the density. If you know how much energy is added to the water, you also know its enthalpy. Then you can use the steam tables to find the pressure.

To refine the calc you could then determine the actual stretch in the pipe (based on its material properties, and dimensions), and then redo the density calc. Iterate to a suitably accurate result.

2. How much volume will need to be vented to relieve the built up pressure?

You need to vent off enough water to bring the pressure back to its initial value. You know this value, and you know the enthalpy (see above). Use the steam tables again, this time to find the density. From the pipe volume (constant as stated above) you can find the mass. The difference is the mass which must be relieved.

In practice, thermal relief valves are small (like 5 gpm capacity). That's enough for 'normal size' piping systems. If you're working with really big systems (lots of volume) you might want to do a check calc as outlined above.If you are concerned about the 'gradient' - really long pipe - then you can break it up into a number of segments, find the temp or enthalpy of each segment, do the calc on each segment, then sum the results. In that case, you would need to do the 'thermal' problem first, to get the 'gradient.'

Gregg
 
Last edited:

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