Height to time equation: water cylinder with pinhole

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SUMMARY

The discussion revolves around deriving a height-time equation for water flowing out of a cylinder through a pinhole. The primary equation presented is $$\dot{W}=\rho g C_d A \sqrt{2gh}$$, where $$\dot{W}$$ is the weight flow rate, $$\rho$$ is the water density, $$g$$ is gravitational acceleration, $$C_d$$ is the discharge coefficient, $$A$$ is the orifice area, and $$h$$ is the water height. Participants explore the relationship between height and time, leading to the equation $$\frac{dh}{dt}=-\frac{A}{A_x}C_D\sqrt{2gh}$$ and discuss integration techniques to express height as a function of time. The conversation concludes with a focus on the accuracy of the derived discharge coefficient and the importance of initial conditions in solving the equations.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of fluid dynamics principles, particularly the Torricelli's law.
  • Knowledge of calculus, specifically integration and differentiation.
  • Familiarity with the concepts of weight flow rate and discharge coefficients.
  • Basic understanding of dimensional analysis and area calculations for circular openings.
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation of Torricelli's law in fluid dynamics.
  • Learn how to apply integration techniques to solve differential equations.
  • Research methods for determining the coefficient of discharge experimentally.
  • Explore the implications of initial conditions in solving ordinary differential equations.
USEFUL FOR

This discussion is beneficial for students and educators in physics and engineering, particularly those interested in fluid mechanics, as well as hobbyists conducting experiments related to fluid flow and calculus.

  • #61
The one that we've been trying to figure out:
$$\dot{W} = \rho g C_D A \left(\sqrt{2gh_0}-\frac{t g C_D A}{A_x}\right)$$
When would I have to use this?
 
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  • #62
Shouldn't that also have given -1.22 if I plug in 43.6 seconds or 48.02 seconds (I don't know which one to use, the average or the ##\Delta t##)?
 
  • #63
Jonathan Densil said:
The one that we've been trying to figure out:
$$\dot{W} = \rho g C_D A \left(\sqrt{2gh_0}-\frac{t g C_D A}{A_x}\right)$$
When would I have to use this?
Now that you know the value of Cd, you can plot this equation up and see what you get. Plot a graph of this equation so that we can compare it with the Logger Pro graph for dW/dt.
 
  • #64
Jonathan Densil said:
Shouldn't that also have given -1.22 if I plug in 43.6 seconds or 48.02 seconds (I don't know which one to use, the average or the ##\Delta t##)?
You calculate the derivative from the difference in the times, but you plot the derivative at the average of the times. It is just a coincidence that the difference and the average are about the same value for this particular case.
 
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  • #65
upload_2016-2-21_20-27-58.png


The weight flow rate against time. Sorry for the lack of labels, I did it in Mathematica and don't know how to add labels
 

Attachments

  • #66
Jonathan Densil said:
View attachment 96264

The weight flow rate against time. Sorry for the lack of labels, I did it in Mathematica and don't know how to add labels
Excellent. This is almost the exact negative of dW/dt calculated by Logger Pro from the raw data.

So you can see that, once you have determined Cd, you don't need the data any more.
 
Last edited:
  • #67
Thank you very, very much, I really appreciate your help. The equation works and very happy that I understand how I got it. I really am very thankful for your help. I struggled to make sense of it all for an entire week with my math and physics teachers at school. Thanks again,

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
  • #68
Hello Chestmiller,

I just have a quick question about uncertainties. I took the derivative of the weight to get weight flow rate. So, if I have the uncertainty for the weight, how do I find the uncertainty of the weight flow rate.
 
  • #69
Jonathan Densil said:
Hello Chestmiller,

I just have a quick question about uncertainties. I took the derivative of the weight to get weight flow rate. So, if I have the uncertainty for the weight, how do I find the uncertainty of the weight flow rate.
I don't know how to do this. Maybe, if you submit it to the mathematics forums (specifying very precisely what is involved mathematically), you can get some help there. Mention that you have an analytic expression for the rate of weight loss vs time, and experimental data on weight as a function of time.
 
  • #70
Do you know any good, trustworthy forums as this one?
 
  • #71
My inclination would be Physics Forums, Science Education, Homework and Coursework Questions, Calculus and Beyond

You have an analytic expression for the derivative of a function based on a fit to experimental data on the function itself. You know the uncertainty of the fit to the experimental data, and you would like to determine the uncertainty in the corresponding analytic expression for the derivative.
 

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