Help relive my current obsession.

[Integral]

Both Google Maps and Microsoft Streets and Trips plotted this fatal course. This gives a whole new meaning to the term "Killer Ap".

The mapping software should define regions as non plot-able. That means that they forbid plotting a destination inside of, or a path through these regions. I will bet that all states west of the Rockies that have regions where this should be true. As far as Oregon goes you would start by blocking out the whole state then allowing the few main thoroughfares.

The problem remains and next week someone else somewhere else may attempt to follow Goggle map to their death. The question is, how do you safely use an internet maps? There needs to be a set of common sense rules to follow when using these maps.



The road was marked as impassable in the winter, so Mr. Kim must take the responsibility for putting his family in danger. I do not see this as the action of a hero.. Sorry..

Let me share a bit of my history. I was born and raised in Roseburg Or, about 100 mi north of the Rogue River Valley. My dad loved the outdoors and driving, we had a Willys Overland in 1960 and spent a lot of time in the woods of Southern Oregon hunting, hiking and exploring the endless net of logging roads. So I am familiar with the terrain and conditions the Kims were facing.


First let me address the snow and weather. this region is not snow covered for the winter until you are well above 5000'. During the day (and most nights) the temperatures are typically above freezing. the low average may be 35 and the high average 45.

The Kims got caught in the last in a series of storms that passed over the region in November. it was a cold front that dropped the nighttime temperatures into the 20's. By Dec 1 the weather was beautiful (maybe day time highs in the lower 50's or upper 40's. It is not really very cold, frost bite is not a big problem in most of Oregon. If you look at the pics of their car when the wife and kids were rescued there is very little snow, if they had not disabled their car I bet they could have driven out.

The Rogue River Valley did not get that name lightly. There is a hiking trail along the Rogue River that is known as the roughest most dangerous trail in the state. In the summer you must carry water, navigate narrow stretches of trial threading across cliffs with fatal drops to rocks and river below on one side, with your shoulder against a vertical cliff on the other. This region is world class rugged. It is very easy to go down and can be anywhere from difficult, to impossible to go back up. I am sure that in many regions going down is the right thing to do. Unfortunately in the Pacific Northwest that is the absolutely worst thing you can do. You need to stay high, the ridge lines are where the navigable game trails are, the creeks and bottoms are brush filled and usually impassible. In this day and age going up also can get you cell phone service. The mountains shield cell signals from getting into the canyons but if you can get to a ridge top it is very likely that you will get cell service. We will never know why James left the road. He should not have, had he kept walking the road he may well have found help and actually been a hero, now he is just dead.


A good safety rule in the west would be: “Do Not lose the center line”. If you drive on for 2 miles with no center line you should turn around and return to a known point. In Oregon, and I am sure other western states, roads with no center line have no guarantee of coming out. They may not be used for weeks at a time between hunting season and spring.

If you want to see first hand what getting to the Rouge River means check this link out

http://www.mailboat.com/slideshow.cfm"

 

[Integral]

I cannot get James Kim out of my head.

The death by technology aspect alone fascinates and horrifies me all at the same time.

Then it happened in my back yard. I grew up in the Umpqua valley, that is the next watershed region north of the Rogue. Zane Grey wrote a story about the Rogue River, and fished the North Umpqua.

I find it interesting that Mr. Kim had booked a motel in Gold Beach where the main attracting is a Jet boat ride up the wild Rogue river to Agness, its the mail boat ride.

Mr. Kim left road and headed down to find the Rogue River, .. Oh why, oh why did he ever leave the road.

 

[Moonbear]

The death by technology aspect alone fascinates and horrifies me all at the same time.

...

Mr. Kim left road and headed down to find the Rogue River, .. Oh why, oh why did he ever leave the road.

I don't see it as death by technology. It's death due to his own stupidity, plain and simple. The online maps are no different than paper maps.

There have always been what are called "paper roads" that show up on maps, but in reality, don't exist as a road because nobody paid the bill to finish the road.

If you're traveling to a new area, you confirm directions on more than one map, get a larger map that includes alternate routes in case you need to take detours or the planned route is impassable (anything from weather conditions, to road construction, to the road doesn't exist or you missed a turn and wound up somewhere unexpected, or you're sitting in stand-still traffic on the interstate and need to get off to go around a major accident).

Especially in winter, or when driving through mountains, you check weather forecasts. Taking back roads when snow or ice are predicted should be avoided if you don't know them, because you can't be sure they'll be clear or passable...stick to interstates under those conditions. In mountains, you also want to know if there is fog forecast. Again, taking unlit back roads that are hard to see in the first place can be really treacherous in heavy fog...better to wait until daylight.

Those maps often give you a choice between the shortest route or fastest route...the shortest is not always fastest.

So, that was the first part of the stupidity...not looking where he was actually going and using some common sense to decide the roads were not safe ones to be traveling in bad weather.

The second part of the stupidity was that once lost and stuck, he left the car. If you haven't passed a house or gas station in miles, and 15 min of walking the other direction doesn't find one (maybe less depending on what the temperatures were like when he left the car), return to the car to wait out the storm, you don't just keep wandering aimlessly in snow (as evidenced by the fact that the wife and kids survived by staying in the car).

Third part of the stupidity was leaving the road. It's stupid enough to leave main roads, but even more stupid to wander entirely off the road into fields or forests. Even if you ARE familiar with an area, in snow, things can look entirely different than on a clear day, and you're unlikely to recognize familiar landmarks. It also makes it harder for someone to find you when they do come looking for you.

 

[Astronuc]

Mr. Kim and his wife and children have paid a high price for his bad decisions.

This seems to be a case of someone from an urban area going out into Nature with little or no experience with the wilderness. It was reckless.

I've visited several National Parks in the west. The rangers and staff are adamant about respecting the wilderness, which means keeping distance with wild animals. However, every year, someone gets seriously injured or killed by elk or bison, rather than bear, because they get too close and the animal reacts defensively. Also, people go hiking without sun screen, proper clothing or water. I saw a young woman hiking on the Bright Angel Trail in shorts and short sleeve shirt. Her thighs had a red/purple hue, which indicated severe sunburn, and she was about an hour down from the rim. She was already in a lot of pain. All I could do was suggest she cover her legs and get to the infirmary ASAP.

James Kim--family man, gadget fan

James Kim was a respected expert on cutting-edge digital devices, an owner of a trendy clothing store and a lover of the futuristic-sounding music known as electronica.

Is this selective intelligence? They guy was apparently tech savvy, but knew nothing of the dangers of being exposed to the elements.

If I go to an area where I have never been, I get maps (particularly USGS or equivalent terrain maps which show contours) and study them. I learn landmarks and the terrain. I know orientation of the sun, moon and stars. And very importantly, I study the weather in advance, especially in winter time, and I know that ambient temperatures decrease with altitude.

Integral, try not to obsess over this situation - we can't turn back time and the decisions of others are out of our hands. Hopefully, others will learn from Kim's mistakes.

 

[Integral]

I am running on the assumption that he never would have found the road if Google Maps had not pointed it out to him. As far as I know this is a relatively new phenomena, tourists finding there way back into our logging road network. If Internet maps can be shown a root cause then something needs to be done.

Signs don't work, turns out that the road they were on was gated, but the lock had been broken and the gate was open (or did Mrs Kim get out and open it?)

Such vandalism is hard to deal with in this region. As the Kims discovered there is no traffic for weeks or even months up many of these roads. Then we have a large population of jerks with 4x4 s, chain saws, and rifles. How do you stop someone from breaking open gates in these conditions?

Did you happen to check the jet boat link?

Is it irony that this man, a technology guru, was heading for Gold Beach, whose main tourist attraction is a Jet boat ride up the Rogue River, the original purpose of this boat was (and it still does) run mail up the river to Agness...Why would they use a (now) a jet boat to get mail to Agness... Because there are no roads that the mail service will drive on!

Mr. Kim choose to hike down into a river gorge that is virtually inaccessible from anywhere!

Mr. Kims decision to leave the road cost him his life, and endangered dozens more in the effort to locate his body.

 

[russ_watters]

I am running on the assumption that he never would have found the road if Google Maps had not pointed it out to him. As far as I know this is a relatively new phenomena, tourists finding there way back into our logging road network. If Internet maps can be shown a root cause then something needs to be done.

Perhaps, but if Google Maps hadn't existed, how would he have planned his trip? Would he have looked at a real map? If he had, he may have made the same mistake, but even if he wouldn't have, in this case he ceded his responsibility to a computer program. He of all people should know that the technology is only as good as whoever wrote the program and neither are infallable.

I didn't know about this aspect of the story, but it is truly a cruel irony.

 

[verty]

I don't know much about this but it seems to me that due diligence was not paid to understanding the route. Now that we have things like Google Earth, I like to use it if there is some part of the route that I'm not sure of, like if I want to see what a junction looks like or whatever. It also helps to survey the terrain.

For instance, when I planned a trip to Liverpool from Lincolnshire, Google Earth was very helpful in helping me understand how the road lay around Sheffield, and how it ran through the peak district.

So anyway, technology needs to be used well to work well. The onus is on us to use technology well because the people that sell it only care that we buy it, that's what disclaimers are for.

 

[turbo]

Such vandalism is hard to deal with in this region. As the Kims discovered there is no traffic for weeks or even months up many of these roads. Then we have a large population of jerks with 4x4 s, chain saws, and rifles. How do you stop someone from breaking open gates in these conditions?

I let the local snowmobile club maintain a 1/2 mile long trail on the eastern boundary of my property with the understanding that they keep it gated whenever the trail is not passable by snowmobile. The reason for this is that there is a fairly steep grade down to a brook about halfway in, and another steeper grade up the other side of my property and both grades have spring-holes that keep the trail wet. I do not want 4-wheelers ripping up that trail and causing soil erosion into that little brook, nor does the snowmobile club want to spend thousands of dollars a year to repair the trail. Though the trail across the road is not legal for 4-wheeler traffic, it is not gated, and groups of these idiots routinely show up on this trail. Despite the sign at the crossing on my property that says "No Vehicular Traffic Beyond this Point" there is always at least one person in every group that rides his 4-wheeler past the sign and on down to the gate, to see if they can open the gate or get around it. When I confront them, they are sometimes apologetic, but more often surly and argumentative. I own a 4-wheeler and use it with a dump-trailer to haul manure, peat moss, firewood, etc. I will not register it and use it on trails because I do not want to be lumped in with these destructive creeps.

Every bit of technology, whether a special-purpose machine, a gun, or a mapping system (in Kim's instance) carries positive and negative potentials. In the hands of the clueless, very bad things can happen, especially when compounded by emotion. Apparently, Kim lacked survival training and common sense. His vehicle was shelter, a source of heat, possible means of escape if weather conditions moderated, and a large target for aerial searchers. The smartest thing to do would have been to stay with his family, start a good bonfire and keep throwing fresh boughs on it to produce smoke. If he had done these things he would be alive.

 

[scorpa]

If the road was that bad anyone with common sense would have just turned back. I feel bad for the family but it's really hard to feel sorry for someone that acts so stupidly.

 

[Integral]

Mr. Kim and his wife and children have paid a high price for his bad decisions.

This seems to be a case of someone from an urban area going out into Nature with little or no experience with the wilderness. It was reckless.

Evidently he did not realize that he was heading into wilderness. Many out of staters have contempt for the Oregon woods, the elevation is low, less then 5000' (~1500m) they are not snow covered except during and shortly after sever storms. They look soft due to the extensive forest coverage and thick brush. But the slopes can be and are frequently greater then 45deg. The brush can hide drop offs that can be any where from 1m to 100m. The brush is thicker then you can comprehend. I have been in Rhododendron (yes Rodys grow wild here) thickets that I was throwing my whole body at in an effort to break through.

I've visited several National Parks in the west. The rangers and staff are adamant about respecting the wilderness, which means keeping distance with wild animals. However, every year, someone gets seriously injured or killed by elk or bison, rather than bear, because they get too close and the animal reacts defensively. Also, people go hiking without sun screen, proper clothing or water. I saw a young woman hiking on the Bright Angel Trail in shorts and short sleeve shirt. Her thighs had a red/purple hue, which indicated severe sunburn, and she was about an hour down from the rim. She was already in a lot of pain. All I could do was suggest she cover her legs and get to the infirmary ASAP.

James Kim--family man, gadget fan

Is this selective intelligence? They guy was apparently tech savvy, but knew nothing of the dangers of being exposed to the elements.

To make matters worse he may have been a weekend camper and may have thought he knew what he was doing. I for one think he was in way to big a hurry to disable the car. If you have dry material to start a fire wood is plenty full and easy to get. The local woods are fir, hemlock and cedar. These are some of the easiest wood to get burning. They had a fire, without burning the tires.

If I go to an area where I have never been, I get maps (particularly USGS or equivalent terrain maps which show contours) and study them. I learn landmarks and the terrain. I know orientation of the sun, moon and stars. And very importantly, I study the weather in advance, especially in winter time, and I know that ambient temperatures decrease with altitude.

Clearly knowing something about the country you are traveling through is important. I find in incredible that this guy had no idea he was driving into a road-ed wilderness.

Integral, try not to obsess over this situation - we can't turn back time and the decisions of others are out of our hands. Hopefully, others will learn from Kim's mistakes.

It is an easy thing to say.. "don't obsess" but the very nature of oppression makes that a difficult thing to do.

Again I urge you to look at the Agness mail boat link in my first post. It has some good pics of the local terraine.. this is where James was headed.

 

[Astronuc]

Did you happen to check the jet boat link?

The Rogue River area looks very cool. I am hoping to get out that way next year.

During winter, I keep a pair of insulated boots in the car, and I make sure I have a shovel. I usually take a parka and insulated mitten and gloves when I am out. I have an Artic parka which is very warm even at -30°F (-34.4°C) and moderate wind. It was designed for winters in northern Alaska.

 

[Integral]

Perhaps, but if Google Maps hadn't existed, how would he have planned his trip? Would he have looked at a real map? If he had, he may have made the same mistake, but even if he wouldn't have, in this case he ceded his responsibility to a computer program. He of all people should know that the technology is only as good as whoever wrote the program and neither are infallable.

I didn't know about this aspect of the story, but it is truly a cruel irony.

The road may not even show up on your typical gas station maps. Google Maps and MS Streets and Trips (I have a copy with a GPS Locator, I love it) also maps the fatal route. It should NEVER be suggested as passable at ANY time of the year. Perhaps Oregon is unique in the number of roads into the woods. Much of the Oregon Coast Range has been logged, there are few areas that cannot be driven to, if you have a 4x4. The fact that mapping software seems to treat these roads as equal to a US Highway is criminal.

What now concerns me, could MS Streets & Trips send me on an equally fatal route though the wilds of Los Angeles? In this terrain I am concerned about ending up in some neighborhood where the local gangs my resent my intrusion. How can I know?

 

[Integral]

The Rogue River area looks very cool. I am hoping to get out that way next year.

During winter, I keep a pair of insulated boots in the car, and I make sure I have a shovel. I usually take a parka and insulated mitten and gloves when I am out. I have an Artic parka which is very warm even at -30°F (-34.4°C) and moderate wind. It was designed for winters in northern Alaska.

One of the hardest things in the Oregon woods is keeping dry. The brush is generally a waxy leafed variety likehttp://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/wilderness/wildflowers/salal.htm" , Rodadendron, and Poison Oak. You could find any combination of these plus others. All have in common the ability to trap and hold water on the leaves, this means, in the wet season that you get soaked walking even a short distance (30m will do it). I read one report that the searchers who were dressed appropriately were soaked to the skin in 30mins.

It is very hard to dress appropriately, if you cover yourself with waterproof rain gear, you now run into the trouble that it is 45-50 deg out and you are soon sweating. So you get wet from the outside in, or the inside out.. take you pick. If you are planning on spending a night without a fire hypothermia is inevitable.

 

[Integral]

If the road was that bad anyone with common sense would have just turned back. I feel bad for the family but it's really hard to feel sorry for someone that acts so stupidly.

I am thinking that a basic survival rule for driving in Oregon is never leave the center line. If you do not know where you are going, ie have never driven the road, and have traveled for 2mi without a center line, turn around ASAP and go back to the last road with a center line. Follow the center line back to civilization.

 

[chroot]

I did search and rescue for several years up in the mountains of Virginia, and still keep my full bivouac kit in my car here in sunny California. I can't imagine anyone driving on logging roads up in Oregon not having the presence of mind to realize it's a bad idea, or going so unprepared in the first place. The difference between survival and death can sometimes literally come down to having a half pound of gear.

I'm also amazed at his foolishness in continuing to walk, further and further, for days. Anyone who's done any real hiking knows what to do when you realize you're seriously lost: hug a tree. That's right, just sit your ass right down in the first sheltered spot you can find and try to take care of your basic survival needs without moving away from the spot you first recognized you were lost. Every step you make from that point dramatically decreases the likelihood that you will be found alive.

The SAR people found all kinds of discarded items, like pants and so on, along the route taken by Kim. Perhaps he thought he was stringing them along like breadcrumbs, but I can't help commenting that if he had just stayed where he had left those pants, he would probably have been found alive.

I can forgive him for not knowing the road was so treacherous beforehand. I can forgive him for not having the right kind of gear to survive unsheltered in that environment. I cannot believe, however, that an educated man would leave the shelter of a car, and walk down a ravine -- non-stop, for days -- ensuring that all the SAR people on his tail stay far behind him.

- Warren

 

[Integral]

I did search and rescue for several years up in the mountains of Virginia, and still keep my full bivouac kit in my car here in sunny California. I can't imagine anyone driving on logging roads up in Oregon not having the presence of mind to realize it's a bad idea, or going so unprepared in the first place. The difference between survival and death can sometimes literally come down to having a half pound of gear.

I'm also amazed at his foolishness in continuing to walk, further and further, for days. Anyone who's done any real hiking knows what to do when you realize you're seriously lost: hug a tree. That's right, just sit your ass right down in the first sheltered spot you can find and try to take care of your basic survival needs without moving away from the spot you first recognized you were lost. Every step you make from that point dramatically decreases the likelihood that you will be found alive.

The SAR people found all kinds of discarded items, like pants and so on, along the route taken by Kim. Perhaps he thought he was stringing them along like breadcrumbs, but I can't help commenting that if he had just stayed where he had left those pants, he would probably have been found alive.

I can forgive him for not knowing the road was so treacherous beforehand. I can forgive him for not having the right kind of gear to survive unsheltered in that environment. I cannot believe, however, that an educated man would leave the shelter of a car, and walk down a ravine -- non-stop, for days -- ensuring that all the SAR people on his tail stay far behind him.

- Warren

My bet is that he did most of his walking, if not all the first day. I have trouble seeing him survive the first night, soaking wet and 35deg. I do not think you could spend a night (a long night at that) in those conditions and survive. You call it a ravine, that is what I call a canyon, and a "bottomless canyon:" at that. I guess to appreciate the term "bottomless canyon" you have had to stand at the top of one looking down.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Dec. 9: Ten years ago, a father turned down a snow-packer Oregon road, became trapped and starved to death. This week, a Calif. man died trying to save his family after it got stuck on the same road. NBC's John Larson reports

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16107451
[see the video]

Finley starved to death in his truck after waiting for 66 days "in almost the same spot".

 

[Evo]

What's more incredibly stupid is the statement he made 'I'll be back in 5 hours". Yet he had no idea where they were, which direction to go, and if any help was within walking distance.

"Back in 5 hours" means he thought that , in the snow, with no idea of where he was going, he'd reach help in less than 2.5 hours. Realistically, how far can you walk in rough terrain with heavy snow? A couple of miles?

When I lived in upstate New York, the grocery store was 8 miles away, on heavily trafficked, familiar highway. Yet I still had that car loaded with enough blankets, food, sterno, matches, laterns, etc... so we could have survived 3 weeks if an accident drove us down a ravine.

 

[Integral]

A 2.5 hour exploration up the road was a very good idea. Evidently he stomped a SOS into the snow on an exposed stretch of road. That is what the helo pilot spotted before finding the wife and kids. Had he, after stomping out the SOS, returned to the fire, he would have been a live hero. His cross country trek into the Rogue Valley had only 1 possible outcome. I would not consider that hike at ANYTIME of the year.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

That would be a pretty scary situation to be in. While I think I would be smart enough to not drive down a deserted road like that, who knows I guess. In that situation I would be TEMPTED to go get help mainly because of the kids/wife (depending on a lot of factors such as seeing stores/towns recently), if I was alone I would stay in the car of course.

Anyways, it is a sad story, but these things happen I guess. Hopefully they can prevent that gate from ever being opened again in the winter. I also think that with all the press this story is getting, people will be more cautious, at least for the next few years anyways.

 

[Integral]

Yeah, the publicity will prevent some from venturing into that region. Meanwhile there may be a flood of others going to see what is so rough about it.

 

[Evo]

Yeah, the publicity will prevent some from venturing into that region. Meanwhile there may be a flood of others going to see what is so rough about it.

Let's hope it keeps more people out, but your concern about the curious is a concern.

People panick in these situations, if he'd had the presence of mind to spell out an SOS in debris around the car, that would have helped. Having been aware of the local 5-10 day forecast would have helped. Having ample provisions would have helped.

Don't fret about it so much Integral, he just didn't take the time to prepare himself for the trip he was taking. Let this be a lesson to us all. There isn't a 7-11 on every street corner, act accordingly.

 

[verty]

I must say I have found Integral's commentary to be very informative. I think it made this ordeal feel a lot closer than it would have otherwise.

 

[Moonbear]

A 2.5 hour exploration up the road was a very good idea.

In those temperatures, and with the limited supplies they had, a half hour exploration would be pushing it.

 

[matthyaouw]

I am thinking that a basic survival rule for driving in Oregon is never leave the center line. If you do not know where you are going, ie have never driven the road, and have traveled for 2mi without a center line, turn around ASAP and go back to the last road with a center line. Follow the center line back to civilization.

How well publicised is this rule? Having never been to an area with roads as trecherous as this in winter, I wouldn't have known this. I still hope I'd have more sense than to travel down a gated forestry road in heavy snow though...

 

[Astronuc]

How well publicised is this rule? Having never been to an area with roads as trecherous as this in winter, I wouldn't have known this. I still hope I'd have more sense than to travel down a gated forestry road in heavy snow though...

Perhaps its simply common sense. On the other hand, someone who has lived in an urban or suburban area may not have sufficient common sense to be out in the wilderness.

My mother told me that the couple were told to take some road (presumably paved), but they apparently they missed the turn and took the wrong road. If that's true, then it would appear that going down a logging road was not deliberate.

A 2.5 hour exploration up the road was a very good idea. Evidently he stomped a SOS into the snow on an exposed stretch of road. That is what the helo pilot spotted before finding the wife and kids.

Certainly finding an open area along the road to make an SOS made sense, but going off the road was nuts. If anything, he should have hiked back to the intersection, where in theory he would have encountered another vehicle.

Why he couldn't get a bigger fire (i.e. a signal fire) is puzzling.

Here is a discussion of the apparent situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim#Map_and_route_controversy

Bear Camp Road is rarely used even by local residents due to its difficult terrain and often inclement weather.[26] Furthermore, there are three yellow road signs that state: "Bear Camp Rd. May be blocked by snowdrifts" (see image).

However, the road on which the Kims got stuck was an offshoot of Bear Creek Rd. that was supposed to be locked by the Bureau of Land Management during the winter. BLM spokeswoman Patty Burel said, "It's supposed to be locked so people don't make that mistake." An investigation revealed that a vandal had cut the lock.

Nov 25 (Saturday), 9:00pm - The Kim family finish dinner at a Denny's restaurant in Roseburg, Oregon and get back on Interstate 5. After missing the turnoff for Oregon Route 42 westward to Gold Beach, Oregon they decide to drive 55 miles south and reach U.S. 101 via Bear Camp Road.

Nov 25 (Saturday), 10:30pm - Inclement weather and deteriorating driving conditions detour the Kim family. Driving back to retrace their path, they accidentally turn onto a spur road where they drive 15 miles into closed backroads. The spur road was supposed to be locked for the winter, but a vandal had cut the lock.

Nov 26 (Sunday), 2:00am - The Kim family stop their car to sleep. During the night, snowfall traps the car.

Kim's apparent path - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:James-kim-path01.jpg If he had only taken the small road to Black Bear Lodge - he would have found shelter and food.

 

[Moonbear]

How well publicised is this rule? Having never been to an area with roads as trecherous as this in winter, I wouldn't have known this. I still hope I'd have more sense than to travel down a gated forestry road in heavy snow though...

I'm not sure if you could tell that a road has a center line or not when it's snowing heavily, but it sounds like it was a tiny, one-lane road. Otherwise, it's generally true throughout the US that unlined roads are pretty minor backroads that are not heavily traveled enough to need lines. You would never expect them to be maintained in snowstorms...those are generally the last roads plowed, after the storm has ended, if at all.

This guy also likely didn't know how to read maps. I looked up the area of the OR map on mapquest where the mailboats are on Gold Beach, and there doesn't seem to be anything you'd take other than HWY 101. All the other roads there show up as local roads (not even state roads show up off 101), but if you didn't figure it out from the legend, and how much you have to zoom into even see roads other than the 101, the ones that even have numbers on the map are labeled "NF." That's National Forestry roads, i.e., logging roads or fire roads. I wouldn't even expect such roads to necessarily be paved.

And, when you check out the link Integral posted of their destination, the directions there are very straightforward too...take Hwy 101 and make one turn off it to get to the location.

Technology still hasn't advanced enough to save people from their own stupidity, plain and simple.

 

[Astronuc]

Paved backroads usually don't have centerlines. I've been up in the Catskill mountains, and many paved roads in the hills do not have median stips.

 

[Moonbear]

Why he couldn't get a bigger fire (i.e. a signal fire) is puzzling.

Probably because he didn't have any proper survival skills. This does raise the question of whether more people are becoming overly reliant on technology and too far removed from nature to have what would seem like it should be common sense when in a situation like this.

 

[Integral]

I have seen several places that stated that James was an "experienced" camper. I am going to interpret this as arrogant and overconfident. They had a fire, if you have dry material to start a fire, wood is plentiful. If you know where to look dry wood is available and it does not ever require an axe to collect. There are always dead limbs low enough to reach and snap off that make very good firewood. If they don't snap, then you don't want it...it is green. It does require some effort to collect and it burns fast, this is not hardwood, but fir, hemlock and cedar. If there was cedar (pretty likely) then they should have had no trouble keeping a fire going. Rather then burning tires they had a endless supply of green fir boughs which are great smoke producers.

I am amazed at the distance they traveled from NF23, Using Google Earth I have tried to trace a likely route between NF23 and where they were found. How in the world did they get there? It is not clear to me that James could have found his way back to NF23 on foot.

One thing that may be pretty unique about the southern Oregon woods, they are EXTENSIVLY roaded. Logging roads go everywhere and nowhere all at the same time. It looks like he got back into the logging road network and really had no idea where he was. See Ivan's post about the man who starved in his pickup waiting to be found. So staying with the car was not guaranteed survival, hiking the road out was not guaranteed survival, he could have walked the logging road network for weeks and not found the combination to get back to even NF23. The only guarantee that he was unaware of, leaving the roads was suicide. He was heading not towards civilization but even deeper into inaccessible wilderness. He did not know this.

I have never seen the center line rule published. It is something I came up with obsessing on this situation. Call it Integrals Law if you will. When driving the back roads, in a strange area, in a snow storm, I think Integrals law applies. You have no business driving into strange territory in such limited visibility conditions. I think this may well apply ANYWHERE. How urgent is the trip you are making? Does your life depend on arriving at the destination?

If Mr. Kim was looking for the scenic route to the coast why was he driving in the middle of the night? It is full dark here by 5pm (sunset ~4:30pm) If he wanted to see what he was driving through he should have stopped in Eugene an hour north of Roseburg where they ate dinner at 8pm. It seems like he was bound and determined to keep the reservations at Gold Beach. Portland to Gold Beach is about an 8hr drive, in good weather. If he was interested in the scenerey he should have planned for another night in Southern Oregon.

 

[Moonbear]

If Mr. Kim was looking for the scenic route to the coast why was he driving in the middle of the night? It is full dark here by 5pm (sunset ~4:30pm)

It was probably darker earlier in the woods too, when you don't get the last remnants of light from the sunset.

If he wanted to see what he was driving through he should have stopped in Eugene an hour north of Roseburg where they ate dinner at 8pm. It seems like he was bound and determined to keep the reservations at Gold Beach. Portland to Gold Beach is about an 8hr drive, in good weather. If he was interested in the scenerey he should have planned for another night in Southern Oregon.

Heck, he'd have been better off if they just pulled to the side of the main road when visibility got too bad to continue on (and while he still had plenty of gas in the car). Conserve gas by turning the car off and only restart it often enough to heat it up a little once in a while during the night (with 4 people in the car, they could have huddled together and kept fairly warm, especially if they just piled all the clothes in their luggage on themselves). Then, when daylight came and they could see where they were going again, they would have been ready to go.

You're probably right that "experienced camper" probably meant overly confident. There's a difference between setting up your tent in a nice campground in the summer, which a lot of people would call "experienced camper," and wilderness survival in the winter, which most people have the sense to know they aren't experienced at. Burning the tires sounds like he watched too many movies and didn't think about having plenty of natural resources around to burn first. If it came down to it, and there really wasn't anything else to burn, I'd probably start pulling upholstery out of the interior before taking the tires off the car...you might not be comfortable without seat cushions, but at least the car can still be driven when the snow thaws enough to get out.

I can understand looking for a clearing to stomp out SOS, but then he should have turned around and returned to the car.

 

[turbo]

You're probably right that "experienced camper" probably meant overly confident. There's a difference between setting up your tent in a nice campground in the summer, which a lot of people would call "experienced camper," and wilderness survival in the winter, which most people have the sense to know they aren't experienced at.

This is probably journalistic license from a city reporter who found out that Kim liked to go camping and did so on his vacations. When I was 14, members of my boy scout troop hiked into a remote area in north-central Maine between Christmas and New Years. We dug out rectangular spots in deep snow, pitched our pitiful canvas Baker tents, built fires to warm us and dry our clothing and gathered fir and spruce boughs to line the floorless tents and bury our cheap army surplus sleeping bags in. It was brutally cold out, but we used our fires to make hot soups, boiled potatoes, etc, and we stayed hydrated and (relatively) warm. This was about 1966. We did not have quallofil, down, fleece, gore-tex, etc. - just cotton and woolen clothing and boots made of leather and rubber. We were kids with just a couple of adult advisers. We were using gear that winter campers of today would look at in horror, but we were prepared. A couple of days and nights camping in near-zero temperatures with really crappy gear can be fun, if you're ready for it. None of the guys that I shared that experience with would have abandoned a functioning vehicle and his family like James Kim did - I can guarantee that.

 

[Evo]

This is probably journalistic license from a city reporter who found out that Kim liked to go camping and did so on his vacations. When I was 14, members of my boy scout troop hiked into a remote area in north-central Maine between Christmas and New Years. We dug out rectangular spots in deep snow, pitched our pitiful canvas Baker tents, built fires to warm us and dry our clothing and gathered fir and spruce boughs to line the floorless tents and bury our cheap army surplus sleeping bags in. It was brutally cold out, but we used our fires to make hot soups, boiled potatoes, etc, and we stayed hydrated and (relatively) warm. This was about 1966. We did not have quallofil, down, fleece, gore-tex, etc. - just cotton and woolen clothing and boots made of leather and rubber. We were kids with just a couple of adult advisers. We were using gear that winter campers of today would look at in horror, but we were prepared. A couple of days and nights camping in near-zero temperatures with really crappy gear can be fun, if you're ready for it. None of the guys that I shared that experience with would have abandoned a functioning vehicle and his family like James Kim did - I can guarantee that.

I even sent my two girls to Polar Camp, (about 1 mile away). It's a Wilderness Preserve, and the girls would go during really cold, icy, snowy weather and learn survival skills, (within 5 minutes of my house )I hope it sunk in.

 

[scorpa]

Everyone always laughs or stares in horror when I tell them I was taught hunter education/ survival in school, but I wouldn't trade what I learned there for anything.

 

[Integral]

This is probably journalistic license from a city reporter who found out that Kim liked to go camping and did so on his vacations. When I was 14, members of my boy scout troop hiked into a remote area in north-central Maine between Christmas and New Years. We dug out rectangular spots in deep snow, pitched our pitiful canvas Baker tents, built fires to warm us and dry our clothing and gathered fir and spruce boughs to line the floorless tents and bury our cheap army surplus sleeping bags in. It was brutally cold out, but we used our fires to make hot soups, boiled potatoes, etc, and we stayed hydrated and (relatively) warm. This was about 1966. We did not have quallofil, down, fleece, gore-tex, etc. - just cotton and woolen clothing and boots made of leather and rubber. We were kids with just a couple of adult advisers. We were using gear that winter campers of today would look at in horror, but we were prepared. A couple of days and nights camping in near-zero temperatures with really crappy gear can be fun, if you're ready for it. None of the guys that I shared that experience with would have abandoned a functioning vehicle and his family like James Kim did - I can guarantee that.

We did much the same thing, at about the same time. Our scout troop went camping every month rain (the usual condition) or shine (the summer). We also used equipment that modern campers look at with horror. Canvas backs and tents, heck when I started in '61 even pack frames were rare. I was one of the first ones in my troop you use a pack frame. I found a wooden/canvas frame, probably army surplus from WWII, in my uncles garage tied my pack to it and though I was quiet clever.

In Oregon we has some control over the general conditions, If we wanted snow we headed for the mountains, if we stayed low, we just had to deal with the rain!