Help with covariant differentiation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the evaluation of covariant differentiation of tensors, specifically focusing on the expression for the second covariant derivative of a tensor \( T^k \). Participants explore the steps involved in this differentiation process, addressing both theoretical and practical aspects of tensor calculus.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the expression for the second covariant derivative and asks for the next steps to complete the evaluation.
  • Another participant points out that the initial expression has different free indices on both sides, suggesting a need for correction.
  • There is a suggestion to use basis and specific formulas to simplify the writing of the covariant differentiation.
  • Multiple participants express confusion regarding the second covariant differentiation and how it applies to a general type (1,1) tensor.
  • One participant proposes considering \( T^k \) as a function of \( z_k \) to derive a relationship involving the covariant derivative.
  • Another participant provides a formula for the covariant derivative of a type (1,1) tensor, prompting further discussion about contraction and the nature of the tensor involved.
  • There is a clarification regarding the notation and the meaning of the tensor \( T^i_j \) in the context of covariant differentiation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and confusion regarding the steps involved in covariant differentiation. There is no consensus on the correct approach or resolution of the issues raised, indicating that multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight potential issues with the indices and the application of formulas, suggesting that assumptions about the tensor types and their properties may need clarification. The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps and dependencies on definitions.

redtree
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I'm having trouble evaluating the following expression (LATEX):

##\nabla_{i}\nabla_{j}T^{k}= \nabla_{i} \frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{i m} \frac{\delta T^{m}}{\delta z^{i}} + \Gamma^{k}_{i m} \Gamma^{m}_{i l} T^{l}##

What are the next steps to complete the covariant differentiation? (This is not a homework assignment)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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redtree said:
What are the next steps to complete the covariant differentiation?
Getting the first step correct. Your expression even has different free indices on both sides.
 
If you will
redtree said:
I'm having trouble evaluating the following expression (LATEX):

##\nabla_{i}\nabla_{j}T^{k}= \nabla_{i} \frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{i m} \frac{\delta T^{m}}{\delta z^{i}} + \Gamma^{k}_{i m} \Gamma^{m}_{i l} T^{l}##

What are the next steps to complete the covariant differentiation? (This is not a homework assignment)

Just use basis and these formulas will be easy to write. For example let ##A=a_i^je^i\otimes e_j## then $$(\nabla_k A)e^k=(\frac{\partial a_i^j}{\partial x^k}e^i\otimes e_j+a_i^j(\nabla_ke^i)\otimes e_j+a_i^je^i\otimes(\nabla_k e_j))\otimes e^k$$ and remember that $$\nabla_ke_i=\Gamma_{ik}^se_s,\quad \nabla_ke^i=-\Gamma_{sk}^ie^s$$
 
Sorry. Better?

##\nabla_{i}\nabla_{j}T^{k}= \nabla_{i} \frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{j l} \frac{\delta T^{l}}{\delta z^{i}} + \Gamma^{l}_{i m} \Gamma^{k}_{j l} T^{m}##
 
Last edited:
The first covariant derivative I get. I'm having trouble with the second covariant differentiation ##\nabla_{i}## of ##\nabla_{j} T^{k}##, where ##\nabla_{j} T^{k} = \frac{ \delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{j l} T^{l}##.
 
redtree said:
The first covariant derivative I get. I'm having trouble with the second covariant differentiation ##\nabla_{i}## of ##\nabla_{j} T^{k}##, where ##\nabla_{j} T^{k} = \frac{ \delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{j l} T^{l}##.

How does the covariant derivative act on a general type (1,1) tensor? How can you apply that to the type (1,1) tensor ##\nabla_j T^k##?
 
Orodruin said:
How does the covariant derivative act on a general type (1,1) tensor? How can you apply that to the type (1,1) tensor ##\nabla_j T^k##?

You mean the invariant ##T##? Where ##T=T^{k} z_{k}##?##\nabla_{j} T = \nabla_{j} T^{k} z_{k} = (\frac{ \delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{j l} T^{l}) z_{k}##?
 
redtree said:
You mean the invariant ##T##? Where ##T=T^{k} z_{k}##?##\nabla_{j} T = \nabla_{j} T^{k} z_{k} = (\frac{ \delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{j l} T^{l}) z_{k}##?
No, I mean a general type (1,1) tensor ##T_i^j##.
 
##\nabla_{k} T^{i}_{j} = \frac{ \delta T^{i}_{j}}{\delta z^{k}} + \Gamma^{i}_{k m} T^{m}_{j} - \Gamma^{m}_{j k} T^{i}_{m} ##

The tensor ##T^{i}_{j}## can be contracted ## T^{i}_{j} z^{j} = T^{i} ##?
 
  • #10
##\nabla_{i}\nabla_{j}T^{k}= \nabla_{i} \frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} + \Gamma^{k}_{j l} \frac{\delta T^{l}}{\delta z^{i}} + \Gamma^{l}_{i m} \Gamma^{k}_{j l} T^{m}##

Is this your suggestion?

##\frac{\delta T }{\delta z^{j}} = \frac{\delta (T^{k} z_{k})}{\delta z^{j}} ## and then solve for ##\frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}}##?
 
  • #11
One thought I had was to consider ##T^{k}## a function of ##z_{k}##, i.e., ##T^{k} = T^{k}(z_{k})##, such that ##\frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{j}} = \frac{\delta T^{k}}{\delta z^{k}} \frac{\delta z_{k}}{\delta z^{j}}## and ##\frac{\delta z_{k}}{\delta z^{j}} = \Gamma^{m}_{k j} z_{m}##
 
  • #12
redtree said:
##\nabla_{k} T^{i}_{j} = \frac{ \delta T^{i}_{j}}{\delta z^{k}} + \Gamma^{i}_{k m} T^{m}_{j} - \Gamma^{m}_{j k} T^{i}_{m} ##

The tensor ##T^{i}_{j}## can be contracted ## T^{i}_{j} z^{j} = T^{i} ##?
No, put ##T^i_j = \nabla_j T^i##.
 
  • #13
Ahhh. Thanks!
 

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