Homosexuallity nature or nurture?

[DrDeath]

here's a question that could do with an answer!

what are the cause's of homosexuallity?

as a practising homosexual myself I've often been intrigued about this, i know I am gay, I've known it for a long time and I am happy to be gay. but why am i gay.

what is it that makes me gay is it nature (some biological thing) or is it nurture (something to do with society or my upbringing)

debate and vote!

 

[arildno]

Well, while I think there is some biological substratum behind sexual orientation, I think that the extent to which this becomes manifest or remains latent within the person depends on societal factors.

 

[DrDeath]

i would tend to agree that social influences do play a part and i would like to believe it is also partly biological as well, but so far as know scientists have found no biological cause's so far?

 

[arildno]

i would tend to agree that social influences do play a part and i would like to believe it is also partly biological as well, but so far as know scientists have found no biological cause's so far?

No, they haven't. There are some sibling correlations and so on that indicate it, but by no means any solid, incontrovertible evidence.

Anyhow, however one looks at it, a fixation of orientation must occur pretty early; at least as far as myself concerned, from the age of 5-6 (and probably before that), girls were always a matter of indifference&lack of interest, while I connected strongly with other boys (and progressively more so).
To me, on basis on that and similar stories, it seems most logical to assume somethig inborn at play here.

 

[DrDeath]

you do have a point most gay people i know (me included) have an idea from very early on which would seem to indicate something biological but could still be sociological, anyways 5-6 is way to young man :). (only kidding). but hey maybe like you say its a bit of both.

if anyone else has any ideas or answers let us know

 

[arildno]

Glad you put that :) there, or I'd been mighty pissed off.

 

[DrDeath]

each person is individual and experience's their own things in life at their own time, personnelly although i knew i was never interested in girls, my interest in boys developed later in life during my very early teens, but hey each to their own. i do however have a great sense of humour which means i can take the p' out of anything and everyone including myself.

 

[arildno]

each person is individual and experience's their own things in life at their own time, personnelly although i knew i was never interested in girls, my interest in boys developed later in life during my very early teens, but hey each to their own. i do however have a great sense of humour which means i can take the p' out of anything and everyone including myself.

Obviously, I didn't mean to say I was a flagrantly erotically obsessed toddler, but that I in perspective, would call some of the bondings I felt at an early age were indications of a sexual orientation that became manifest as such years after.

there wasn't any specifically erotic content in such feelings before the age 12-13 in me, at least.

 

[DrDeath]

great i now have weird and disturbing images of an eroctically obsessed toddler in my head. what i meant by my comments was purly that 5-6 was a very early age to even understand the concept of that kind of relationship, obviously you meant that with hindsight you realize that you had stronger bonds with males rather than females of an early age.

(p.s I am now going to have nightmares cos these images in my head) :D

 

[DrDeath]

someone please save me from this errotically obsessed toddler! please
:D

 

[arildno]

someone please save me from this errotically obsessed toddler! please
:D

I was blond-haired, and liked to catch butterflies..

 

[DrDeath]

says it all i suppose :D, by the way i can't believe you got "whumped by an apple tree"

 

[matthyaouw]

I always thought it was pretty normal to be disinterested in girls at that age- just part of being a kid. I for one didn't really see any signs attraction to boys until I was 14/15, even in retrospect (though I'm bisexual rather than gay, so perhaps any hints at orientation were less easy to notice.)

 

[DrDeath]

i suppose it might harder for you to notice as like you say your interested in both genders so the signs would be more subtle. any thoughts on the nature/nurture question

 

[arildno]

says it all i suppose :D, by the way i can't believe you got "whumped by an apple tree"

Sure I was, in the arm, mind you!
It went like this:
I was over at my parents' to help my Dad cut down the old curmudgeon, and since the work of gravity alone would have dumped it in my mother's beloved bushes, we knew we had to push the tree a bit while it was sawed over.
My Dad, ever the intelligent fellow, suggested we should tie a rope to it, and have one guy pull, the other saw, but I had a better idea:
We didn't need a rope, my Dad could start sawing, while I pushed the tree in the direction we wanted it to fall.
Of course, when my Dad was through, the trunk whipped back and slammed into my upper arm on the insides and made a huge rift.
That was it basically..

 

[DrDeath]

ah so you failed to take into account the ever fatal laws of gravity and kinetic energy as well as the seesaw effect.

ah well we live and learn

 

[matthyaouw]

i suppose it might harder for you to notice as like you say your interested in both genders so the signs would be more subtle. any thoughts on the nature/nurture question

I'm unsure. Nurture definitely affects how well manifested it becomes, just like Arildno says, but the fact that it occurs in so many different species of animal as well as humans implies to me that perhaps it does have its roots in our biology.

 

[DrDeath]

humm tru, i wonder if scientists will ever find out a definite answer or just get bored trying and give up

 

[arildno]

The animal evidence is, indeed, most suggestive:
In the common chimpanzee, a macho society if there ever was one, it is not too rare that a young male attaches himself to a stronger, older, male for protection&education, at the price of getting on his fours now and then.(Oh, I forgot, they're always on their fours..)

Among the bonobo chimpanzees, homosexual acts, as well as heterosexual ones are actively used to reduce social tensions within the group.

 

[arildno]

humm tru, i wonder if scientists will ever find out a definite answer or just get bored trying and give up

That might be for the best.

 

[wolram]

In humans is there a link with inteligence, i am ignorant of the facts but
are there any ?

 

[arildno]

I seem to recall having read somewhere that gays has somewhat higher IQ than other men on average.

However, many IQ tests are not sufficiently guarded against an academic/artistic bias, and either by inclination or convenience, gays may be somewhat over-represented in those fields.

Another possible source of error here is that even with anynomous testing, only those gays might be expected to answer/agree to take it who are secure enough to disclose in some form to perfect strangers tat they are gay. That would tend to over-represent gays who are assertive, confident and finds themselves with a wide range of interests to make their lives happy.
I have a suspicion that such individuals will tend to do better on IQ-tests than depressed reclusives.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So, wrt to prison inmates, is this all homosexual activity in the typical sense, or this a dominance thing that is disparate from sexual orientation? It seems to me that there are homosexual acts that happen for "other reasons", and then true homosexuals.

There is no doubt in my mind that some people are born as homosexuals. I was engage to a girl who had a gay brother. There is no way that this was learned behavior, IMO.

Here is one that caused my jaw to hit the floor like a rock. I recently got an email from an old college buddy.
It read: I have a vagina now.

He, now she, is a medical doctor in Ohio. One day he told his wife that deep inside he was a woman, Then he went to Thailand and had a sex change. His wife left him, of course.

Never saw that one coming.

 

[arildno]

So, wrt to prison inmates, is this all homosexual activity in the typical sense, or this a dominance thing that is disparate from sexual orientation? It seems to me that there are homosexual acts that happen for "other reasons", and then true homosexuals.

As I see it, (latent) capacity for enjoyment of homosexual (or for that matter, heterosexual) acts is laid down pretty firmly in our psyches, and comes in varying degrees, irrespective of social factors and prejudices.

A "low capacity" should mean that only very occasionally will such a desire for the relation manifest itself (for example in a female-deprived environment, or some very unique person), and that given the choice, the individual in question would generally prefer the it other way (even if some enjoyment is gained from what one has been doing).

Thus, a "true" homosexual is one with "low" latent capacity for heterosexual enjoyment.

I'm rather doubtful as to existence of "strict zero"-capacity.


In particular, manifest loathing of a particular orientation has very little to do with the level of latent capacity; it is more probable that the loathing is a psychological "defence mechanism" for keeping the loathed desires from becoming MANIFEST within the individual. The sense of loathing is a constructed bulwark against dangerous and SOCIALLY proscribed desires.
Why I think that?
Because it is extremely uncommon to find gays loathing the act of doing it with women. There is simply an emotional indifference towards that act.
If loathing had been a good indicator of the level of latent capacity, then gays ought to have been horrified and disgusted at the thought of doing it with women. That is not the case.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In particular, manifest loathing of a particular orientation has very little to do with the level of latent capacity; it is more probable that the loathing is a psychological "defence mechanism" for keeping the loathed desires from becoming MANIFEST within the individual. The sense of loathing is a constructed bulwark against dangerous and SOCIALLY proscribed desires.

I know this is a popular opinon and many people believe its true, and in some cases it may be true, but I can personally testify to the fact that there are other gut level objections that some of us feel. And you have to admit, it could be that as a homosexual you can't understand this on a biological level. But seeing two guys kissing romantically violates my instictual sensibitlities much as it does to imagine my parents or grandparents having sex. Now don't get me wrong. I think people have a right to be left alone to find happiness however they can, but I don't want to see it.

 

[arildno]

Hmm..a defence mechanism that didn't work at the gut level, wouldn't be particularly efective, would it?


Furthermore, many individuals in cultures that have some taboo (like not eating pork), will react emotionally with nausea and disgust at the thought of breaking the taboo.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

As I understand things, about 15% of all seagulls are lesbians. Does this imply that the other 85% are sexually repressed?

Really though, I see no evolutionary reason for what you say. Why would we all have these tendencies? What is the advantage?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Look at it this way. I was horny as a barnyard goat by the time I was eleven or twelve. There was never any interest in anything but girls nor has there ever been. It wasn't learned behavior; it was instinct. And there was never any doubt about the unique qualitities that made girls, and girls alone, attractive and sexually appealing; even before I knew what sex was. To me, to argue otherwise is to ignore the facts of life. That is why the idea of men with men took quite some getting used to for me.

Women with women has always worked for some reason though...

You know, it does strike me that perhaps some homosexuals aren't comfortable allowing heterosexuals to be who they are.

 

[wolram]

Well, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

As I understand things, about 15% of all seagulls are lesbians. Does this imply that the other 85% are sexually repressed?

Really though, I see no evolutionary reason for what you say. Why would we all have these tendencies? What is the advantage?

Maybe it is natures way of controling population

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Really though, I see no evolutionary reason for what you say. Why would we all have these tendencies? What is the advantage?

I think Arildno mentioned the bonobo. Unless what I have heard and read is mistaken it has also been common in some older societies for males to have sexual relationships with both females and other males.

I remember hearing about someone claiming that there are degrees of homosexuality and that all humans are homosexual to some degree. I'm not really sure about this and can't find anything at the moment about such a theory.I can say though that I have met people that would lead me to believe in varying degrees of homosexuality.

I've met numerous women that are bisexual. This I think is mainly because the sort of relationships that could lead to such a discovery are far more socially acceptable for women than for men.

I know a lesbian who has had sex with men on several occasions. I know some straight men that have had sexual experiences with other men and enjoyed them but that do not consider themselves to be homosexuals.

I'd also have to say that the popularity with heterosexual men of receiving anal and also fascination with transvestites is mind bogglingly larger than one might think. I have a hard time thinking that all such people are really just closet homosexuals.

None of this is very scientific ofcourse (and I realize that there are other biological factors for men enjoying anal too) but these are just some of the reasons why I think that there is a mixture of both social/psychological and biological processes at work.