News How are Iraqi rebels obtaining illegal arms?

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The discussion centers around the sources of weapons for Iraqi rebels, questioning how they acquire arms given the significant disarmament of the former Iraqi military during the invasion. Participants explore the idea that a longstanding culture of small arms ownership in Iraq contributes to the availability of weapons. Reports indicate that many households in Iraq possess AK-47s, suggesting a widespread distribution of firearms. The conversation also touches on the historical context of arms sales to Iraq, particularly from countries like the Soviet Union and France, and speculates about potential smuggling routes, including from Saudi Arabia.There are debates about the effectiveness of arms control in Iraq, with some arguing that there are still many hidden caches of weapons from before the invasion. The discussion also references the role of the U.S. in supplying arms to Iraq in the past, with some participants suggesting that the CIA may have facilitated the distribution of AK-47s and RPGs. However, the lack of concrete evidence for these claims leads to skepticism and accusations of conspiracy theories.
devil-fire
where are the iraqi rebels getting their weapons from? i thought that everyone or almost everyone from the former iraqi military who would have accses to small arms chaches either surrendered , were captured or were killed early in the invasion? is it just the small arms culture that has always been in iraq that is supplying weapons to these fighters? what kind of arms control is currently in place in iraq?
 
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the thing is that right now, iraq has a lot of the world's attention and more importantly, the western world has high interest in there so most of the weapons are not likly to slip in like they did in rwanda. so i was thinking that either there are leaks in new iraq government or it could just be that the weapons were already everywhere before anyone invaded anything (i read an interview with the arms dealer that supplyed sadam before the kuwait invasion and he claimed something in the lines of 'owning an ak-47 is a right of passage in iraq'). maybe people had a lot of RPGs, rifles and ammunition before, but i would expect that to have been spent by now

thoughts?
 
The Iraqis (on the BBC) have repeatedly reported seeing Sadr's militia with Iranian weapons and Iranian style dress.
 
At the moment, every household in Iraq is allowed to own one AK47 variant, or so our news clamied the other day.
 
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nothing about all the RPGs or ammo?
 
Iraq was arms dealer to the world prior to the war. I'm sure there are caches all over the place.
 
Iraq was flooded with ex-Soviet military hardware for quite a while. Unfortunately it was not flooded with ex-Soviet engineers, so most of it is old and not so great.
 
Iraq was arms dealer to the world prior to the war.

Hmmm. I wonder where they could have gotten all those weapons.
 
Mostly from France and the Soviet Union, I suspect.
 
  • #10
Well yes, generally ex-Soviet gear comes from ex-Soviet places.
 
  • #11
and some items had shown up from russia, I believe.
 
  • #12
How many people in the USA have weapons? almost everyone.
 
  • #13
What's your point, tumor?
 
  • #14
JohnDubYa said:
Mostly from France and the Soviet Union, I suspect.

Try the USA.

JohnDubYa said:
What's your point, tumor?

Well if almost everyone in the US has weapons, iraq is arms dealer of the world, is it possible almost everyone in iraq had weapons?


i rekon they smuggle weapons in from saudia arabia too.
 
  • #15
Smurf said:
1>Try the USA.



2>Well if almost everyone in the US has weapons, iraq is arms dealer of the world, is it possible almost everyone in iraq had weapons?


3>i rekon they smuggle weapons in from saudia arabia too.

1>Show me some sort of validation for this assertion. I wasn't aware that we built and/or sold kalishnikovs to anyone

2>Not almost everyone in the US has weapons, however we do have enough weapons here for every person. The reason for that is our freedom to own them. As we all know, Saddam would not take kindly to his detractors having guns to fight him with (are we in agreement here, or do I need to get a link on this?). When did Iraq become the arms dealer of the world?

3> Why Saudi Arabia? Not saying atleast ONE gun didn't get smuggled from there, just wondering why the seemingly arbitrary choice?
 
  • #16
1.
A brief history of US participation in the Middle east, this is what people mean when they say 'They've interfered with so mucht that's none of their business'

in 1951 Iranian people democratically elect Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh as Iranian premier. in 53 the US ousts Mossadegh and isntalls Shah as dictator. In 79 the iranian people revolt against shah and take US hostages in retaliation (the embassy incident). The iraqi-Iranian war start when the US enters partnership with Saddam and gives him weapons and money to kill iranians in retaliation of the hostage taking. Saddam begins to develop Chemical and Biological Weapons. The relationship went sour during the gulf war when Pres Bush betrayed Saddam, thus resulting in the attempted assassination of Pres Bush Sn. by Saddam Hussein.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA Hits/Iran_CIAHits.html
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/4185241.htm?1c
http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorbkgd/following.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/us_iraq_history_1_020917.html
http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/1999/05/27/p23s3.htm
http://pilger.carlton.com/iraq/impact

2. Dunno, havn't researched it but its plausable. I was merely putting a theory together from tumor and Johns posts.

3. I've just been hearing a lot about AL Quadi running around in saudi arabia managing to evade officials, so it seems a likely spot, jordan doesn't have such a big problem, and syria is too well controlled i think. I know someone who lived there he said he saw secret service agents every other block, exageration for sure but still.
 
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  • #17
1> Smurf, I'm aware of all of that. What does that have to do with a bunch of thugs running around with small arms? I don't see them running around with missilie trucks and tanks (even then they were all soviet as well). They have kalishnikovs and RPG's. Those were not what we provided.
 
  • #18
phatmonky said:
They have kalishnikovs and RPG's. Those were not what we provided.
why wouldn't it? AKs cost 7 bucks in africa, no one said the CIA wasnt cheap.
 
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  • #19
Smurf said:
phatmonky said:
They have kalishnikovs and RPG's. Those were not what we provided.
why wouldn't it? AKs cost 7 bucks in africa, no one said the CIA wasnt cheap.

So now this has devolved into conspiracy theory that can't be proven?
I'm going to bed.
 
  • #20
You won't miss much.
 
  • #21
Why don't you believe the US would sell AKs And RPGs to the Iraqis? What would they give them? M-16s? I doubt it, too expensive, Saddam only needed to arm more troops, no reason to spend hundreds of dollars per soldier. Remember reading about how he marches women and children in front of his armies to dissuade the iranians?
 
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  • #22
Why don't you believe the US would sell AKs And RPGs to the Iraqis?

Is this your response? You are going to ask us if we believe it or not?

It doesn't matter whether we choose to believe it; cite the evidence to support your claim.
 
  • #23
Prove that it isnt, my theory is common sense, when was the last time you heard of a terrorist with an M-16.
We know the US provided arms, We know the terrorists used ak-47s, they may have got them from somewhere else too, but I believe they also got them from the CIA.
 
  • #24
Ever heard of William Blum? He writes books and essays criticising the US administration, particularly its rather unsavoury activities. His main source of information is the US Library of Congress. He provides sources from the LOC in his work. He constantly checks information released through the FOIA, and includes relevant pieces in his writings. Personally, I think he performs a valuable public service.

You can read some of his material here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/William_Blum.html
 
  • #25
I've never read any of his stuff before, this is golden, thanks!
 
  • #26
Adam said:
Ever heard of William Blum? He writes books and essays criticising the US administration, particularly its rather unsavoury activities. His main source of information is the US Library of Congress. He provides sources from the LOC in his work. He constantly checks information released through the FOIA, and includes relevant pieces in his writings. Personally, I think he performs a valuable public service.

You can read some of his material here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/William_Blum.html

Anything in there showing us buying up Russian small armsand redistributing to Iraq? :rolleyes: You guys are so damn unbelievable. You just run off on a tangent when you can't back your on-topic statements.
 
  • #27
Smurf said:
Prove that it isnt, my theory is common sense, when was the last time you heard of a terrorist with an M-16.
We know the US provided arms, We know the terrorists used ak-47s, they may have got them from somewhere else too, but I believe they also got them from the CIA.

I started to write a long reply to this, but I'm not falling for the trap.
If it's common sense, you can easily find something to back your theory. Until then, try to remember this is a serious forum, not one for spouting unbacked conspiracy
 
  • #28
Smurf said:
I've never read any of his stuff before, this is golden, thanks!


Golden? Taking pride in this now?
 
  • #29
phatmonky said:
Anything in there showing us buying up Russian small armsand redistributing to Iraq? :rolleyes: You guys are so damn unbelievable. You just run off on a tangent when you can't back your on-topic statements.

Are you now saying the US Library Of Congress is wrong, and the FOIA releases lies?
 
  • #30
"American technology, Russian Technology, All made in Taiwan!"

Where I come from 'Golden' is a slang word used to express great interest or amusment.
 
  • #31
Adam said:
Are you now saying the US Library Of Congress is wrong, and the FOIA releases lies?

You know very well what I'm asking for Adam. Just simply post a link to the actual page with this proof. Show me where we gave Russian small arms to Iraq. More specifically, just show me where we gave them AK-47's.
 
  • #32
Smurf said:
"American technology, Russian Technology, All made in Taiwan!"

Where I come from 'Golden' is a slang word used to express great interest or amusment.
Still waiting on those links.

Sorry, I find nothing amusing about many of the covert operations launched during the cold war.
 
  • #33
You and Johnny both, obsessed with links

http://www.spongobongo.com/no9979.htm

"Shortly afterwards President Reagan ordered the CIA to airlift in every AK-47 that we could get our hands on to the rebellion. Obviously if we supplied the rifles that we had, the M16s would have been too obvious. So we turned to the stores in Pakistan and the huge stockpiles of AK-47s in Israel"

The internet has everything, If I can find a site that says Bush's mother was a space alien, I can find a sight that says Pigs were brought to North America by Flying Horses.
 
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  • #34
Smurf said:
You and Johnny both, obsessed with links

http://www.spongobongo.com/no9979.htm

"Shortly afterwards President Reagan ordered the CIA to airlift in every AK-47 that we could get our hands on to the rebellion. Obviously if we supplied the rifles that we had, the M16s would have been too obvious. So we turned to the stores in Pakistan and the huge stockpiles of AK-47s in Israel"

The internet has everything, If I can find a site that says Bush's mother was a space alien, I can find a sight that says Pigs were brought to America by Flying Horses.

I'm obsessed with the links because of the constant about of bull**** that is running rampant on these forums.
But the point of that mission was to keep the US's fingerprints off of it, but still support the revolt. You have made your point that we have provided them, but I still don't see how this is common sense, or likely, in the case of Iraq (I still don't see a link to this one, as Adam is saying exists ).
The last time we would have provided Iraq weapons would have been the same time they were getting weapons from the Soviets. Why the soviets would give them no small arms, with their tanks, migs, and other supplies is beyond me. But to make this even more crazy, you assert that we then wanted to covertly give Saddam small arms and keep our prints off that, while we held a public relationship with him and supplied him chemical weapons to deter Iran.

As for your idea that M-16's are too expensive. You are Canadian,so you may not be aware that our government does not work on an intelligent expense platform (no matter how much I wish they did). Iran is the only other country in the world that has the F-14. They are currently buried in the dirt to make use of their long range Radar. If planes, and one of our most expensive at the time, aren't too expensive, I don't see why small arms would be - not to mention the other contradictory reasons I stated above.
 
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  • #35
Yeah. I forgot what we were arguing about, give me a minute.

>>Oh right. weather the USA gave Iraq AK-47s and RPGs. I got carried away and forgot what my point was. another minute.
 
  • #37
http://www.curi.us/domain/archives/2004/04/20/weap-caches

I don't understand it myself, this guy is going on about weapon caches and whatnot, very interesting.

He basicly states (I think) that there's more burried munitions in Iraq than anywhere else in the world.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-29-cover-small-arms_x.htm

a more comprehensible article about it
 
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  • #38
So far, we have been provided a short blurb from an unnamed rug dealer, an admittedly error-prone, incomprehensible guestimation from "curi," and a news article from CNN that states that the Iraqis had (gasp) a lot of small arms. (I don't even bother with Adam's links anymore.)

Why not find the evidence to support your claims, THEN post?
 
  • #39
Ah, refusal to view the information presented. It's a wonderful thing, isn't it? :)
 
  • #40
Adam said:
Ah, refusal to view the information presented. It's a wonderful thing, isn't it? :)

The information isn't refused, its just been proven false. This piece of information is what youve been refusing.
 
  • #41
Proven Palse? pray give me a link that disproves it.
 
  • #42
Smurf, studenx has a habit of saying things totally unrelated to... well, anything, really. The information was never "proven false" by anyone, least of all studentx.
 
  • #43
:smile: oh well...
 
  • #44
Which piece of information are you referring to? The piece that doesn't prove that the US gave iraq AK's and RPG's? You don't understand it do you?
The burden of proof lies with you.
 
  • #45
I don't know, your the one that said it what were YOU referring to?
 
  • #46
Smurf said:
Try the USA.

This was the piece of information i was referring to. Its been proven false by lack of any evidence of this assumption and when asked to post evidence, it is said the evidence is already posted. When Adam is asked to point to the evidence , he points to something which is not evidence and accuses others of refusing it as evidence. This is also a piece of information which has been proven false : Adams claim that what he posted is evidence to the assumption that the US gave Ak's and RPG's to Iraq.
 
  • #47
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/18/features-crogan1.php

second paragraph

"At every turn of the war against Iraq, U.S. and British forces will face weapons systems largely developed and supplied to Iraq by American, European, Russian and Chinese companies."

America may not have been the only nation. But my suggestion still stands.
 
  • #48
No mention of the CIA. No mention of AK-47's.

Just another wild goose chase.
 
  • #49
Why are you so offended by the idea the CIA gave Ak-47s to Iraq, we know tehy gave them to afghanistan.
 
  • #50
studentx said:
This was the piece of information i was referring to. Its been proven false by lack of any evidence of this assumption and when asked to post evidence, it is said the evidence is already posted. When Adam is asked to point to the evidence , he points to something which is not evidence and accuses others of refusing it as evidence. This is also a piece of information which has been proven false : Adams claim that what he posted is evidence to the assumption that the US gave Ak's and RPG's to Iraq.

Remember what I told you ages ago? Read first, then post.

Here are the links I provided for you earlier:
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1999/jf99/jf99lumpe.html
http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/19/a0080.nf/textdruck
 

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