How are tidal effects explained by general relativity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the explanation of tidal effects through the lens of general relativity, particularly how spacetime curvature relates to the phenomenon of high tides on Earth caused by the Moon's gravitational influence. Participants explore both conceptual and visual representations of tidal forces in curved spacetime.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses understanding of gravity as spacetime curvature but struggles to grasp how this curvature explains tidal forces, particularly on the side of Earth opposite the Moon.
  • Another participant suggests that relativity can be reduced to Newtonian gravity, proposing a visualization of the Earth and tidal bulges as connected objects, with tidal forces represented as tension on a string.
  • A participant introduces a visual analogy involving inertial and non-inertial coordinates to illustrate how free-falling particles behave in curved spacetime, noting the equivalence principle.
  • One participant acknowledges the visual representation but remains unclear on its relation to high tides on the opposite side of Earth, speculating that the Earth may be more stretched in the direction of the Moon compared to the water on the opposite side.
  • Another participant reiterates confusion regarding the connection between the visual analogy and the high tide phenomenon, suggesting that the Earth itself is stretched along the radial line towards the Moon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and visualization of tidal forces in the context of general relativity. There is no consensus on how the curvature of spacetime specifically accounts for the high tides on the opposite side of Earth, indicating ongoing uncertainty and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference visual analogies and concepts that may depend on specific interpretations of spacetime geometry, but these interpretations are not universally agreed upon. The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the relationship between tidal forces and spacetime curvature.

Leonardo Muzzi
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I can fairly understand the concept of gravity as a curvature in space time in general relativity, but so far I could not understand completely the tidal forces explained by the curvature of spacetime.

When the moon is on one side of the earth, the oceans on this side come closer to the moon, AND the oceans on the opposite side goes far from it, causing high tides on both sides.

Now, I can understand the effect on the opposite side explained by Newtonian gravitation: the Earth itself suffer a force stronger than the water on the opposite side. So far so good. But I cannot explain the same effect thinking in a spacetime curvature. I can see why a more stretched spacetime near the moon would cause high tides on the side directly facing it, but I cannot visualize how the curvature would cause the same effect on the other side.
 
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Well, Relativity is reducible to Newtonian gravity, so they work the same. I find it helpful to visualize the Earth and two bulges as three objects connected with string. The tidal force is the tension on the string.
 
Leonardo Muzzi said:
I could not understand completely the tidal forces explained by the curvature of spacetime.
"Tidal forces" refers to an effect , where nearby free falling objects converge or diverge. This is visualized in Fig. C below, for two objects falling radially:

DrGreg said:
This is my own non-animated way of looking at it:

curved-spacetime-v2-png.56007.png

    • Two inertial particles, at rest relative to each other, in flat spacetime (i.e. no gravity), shown with inertial coordinates. Drawn as a red distance-time graph on a flat piece of paper with blue gridlines.
    • B1. The same particles in the same flat spacetime, but shown with non-inertial coordinates. Drawn as the same distance-time graph on an identical flat piece of paper except it has different gridlines.

      B2. Take the flat piece of paper depicted in B1, cut out the grid with some scissors, and wrap it round a cone. Nothing within the intrinsic geometry of the paper has changed by doing this, so B2 shows exactly the same thing as B1, just presented in a different way, showing how the red lines could be perceived as looking "curved" against a "straight" grid.
    • Two free-falling particles, initially at rest relative to each other, in curved spacetime (i.e. with gravity), shown with non-inertial coordinates. This cannot be drawn to scale on a flat piece of paper; you have to draw it on a curved surface instead. Note how C looks rather similar to B2. This is the equivalence principle in action: if you zoomed in very close to B2 and C, you wouldn't notice any difference between them.
Note the diagrams above aren't entirely accurate because they are drawn with a locally-Euclidean geometry, when really they ought to be drawn with a locally-Lorentzian geometry. I've drawn it this way as an analogy to help visualise the concepts.
 
That's actually a very interesting draw to point out our perception of why particles move the way they do in a curved spacetime.

Still, I cannot understand how this has do to with the high tide on Earth's opposite side relative to the moon.

Giving some thought, I'm imagining the answer is that the Earth itself is a little more stretched in the direction of the moon than the water on the opposite side... maybe...
 
Leonardo Muzzi said:
I cannot understand how this has do to with the high tide on Earth's opposite side relative to the moon.
If the two particles in Fig. C were connected with a string, it would be stretched. And so is the Earth being stretched along the line radial line.
 
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