How Can I Determine the Values of p, q, r, and s in This Mathematical Problem?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving a mathematical problem involving four positive real numbers \( p, q, r, s \) that satisfy a system of equations. The participants explore the implications of the equations using the AM-GM inequality and consider the uniqueness of the solution.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant applies the AM-GM inequality to derive bounds for \( pqrs \), concluding that \( pqrs \leq 81 \) and \( pqrs \geq 81 \) lead to \( pqrs = 81 \) and suggests \( p = q = r = s = 3 \).
  • Another participant questions the uniqueness of the solution, noting that while \( p = q = r = s = 3 \) is a valid solution, there may be other combinations, such as setting \( p = q = 2 \), that could also satisfy the equations.
  • Further discussion highlights that the conditions derived from the AM-GM inequality imply equality only when all variables are equal, but this does not rule out the existence of other solutions.
  • One participant expresses gratitude for the clarification regarding the conditions for equality in the AM-GM inequality, indicating a shift in understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the uniqueness of the solution. While some argue that the derived conditions imply \( p = q = r = s = 3 \), others contend that alternative solutions may exist.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reveals limitations in the initial problem setup, particularly the reliance on only two equations to determine four variables, which raises questions about the completeness of the solution space.

anemone
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Hi MHB,

I have encountered a problem and I am not being able to figure out the answer.

Problem:

Given that $p, q, r, s$ are all positive real numbers and they satisfy the system

$p+q+r+s=12$

$pqrs=27+pq+pr+ps+qr+qs+rs$

Determine $p, q, r$ and $s$.

Attempt:

The AM-GM inequality for both $p, q, r, s$ and $pq,pr,ps,qr,qs,rs$ are:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]$\dfrac{p+q+r+s}{4} \ge \sqrt[4]{pqrs}$ which then gives $(\dfrac{12}{4})^4 \ge pqrs$ or $pqrs \le 81$[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]$\dfrac{pq+pr+ps+qr+qs+rs}{6} \ge \sqrt[6]{(pqrs)^3}$

which then gives $(\dfrac{pqrs-27}{6})^2 \ge pqrs$

$(pqrs-81)(pqrs-81) \ge 0$

$pqrs \le 9$ or $pqrs \ge 81$[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

After that, I don't see how to proceed...should I conclude that since we need to find $pqrs$ that satisfy both of the inequalities below

$pqrs \le 81$ and $pqrs \ge 81$

$\therefore pqrs=81$ and and obviously the answer would be $p=q=r=s=3$?
 
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On your second AM-GM inequality, you get $(pqrs-81)(pqrs-9) \ge 0$, with the individual inequalities that you found.

In the beginning of the problem, you specified that $p,q,r,s$ are real. Is that correct? If so, I see no way of nailing down all four values, given only two equations. Certainly, $p=q=r=s=3$ works, but what guarantee do we have that there isn't another solution? E.g., try setting $p=q=2$, and solving the resulting system for $r,s$, and see if there is a solution.

[EDIT] See Opalg's post below for a correction.
 
anemone said:
Hi MHB,

I have encountered a problem and I am not being able to figure out the answer.

Problem:

Given that $p, q, r, s$ are all positive real numbers and they satisfy the system

$p+q+r+s=12$

$pqrs=27+pq+pr+ps+qr+qs+rs$

Determine $p, q, r$ and $s$.

Attempt:

The AM-GM inequality for both $p, q, r, s$ and $pq,pr,ps,qr,qs,rs$ are:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]$\dfrac{p+q+r+s}{4} \ge \sqrt[4]{pqrs}$ which then gives $(\dfrac{12}{4})^4 \ge pqrs$ or $pqrs \le 81$[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]$\dfrac{pq+pr+ps+qr+qs+rs}{6} \ge \sqrt[6]{(pqrs)^3}$

which then gives $(\dfrac{pqrs-27}{6})^2 \ge pqrs$

$(pqrs-81)(pqrs-81) \ge 0$

$pqrs \le 9$ or $pqrs \ge 81$[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

After that, I don't see how to proceed...should I conclude that since we need to find $pqrs$ that satisfy both of the inequalities below

$pqrs \le 81$ and $pqrs \ge 81$

$\therefore pqrs=81$ and and obviously the answer would be $p=q=r=s=3$?
It looks as though you have solved this problem. You have shown that either $pqrs\leqslant9$ or $pqrs\geqslant 81$. But the equation $pqrs=27+pq+pr+ps+qr+qs+rs$ shows that $pqrs\geqslant27$, so that rules out the first of those possibilities. We are left with the second one, $pqrs\geqslant 81$. But you have also shown that $pqrs\leqslant 81$. Therefore $pqrs = 81$. That implies that equality occurs in the AM-GM inequality, and that only happens when all four quantities are equal. So $p=q=r=s=3$.
 
Ackbach said:
On your second AM-GM inequality, you get $(pqrs-81)(pqrs-9) \ge 0$, with the individual inequalities that you found.

In the beginning of the problem, you specified that $p,q,r,s$ are real. Is that correct? If so, I see no way of nailing down all four values, given only two equations. Certainly, $p=q=r=s=3$ works, but what guarantee do we have that there isn't another solution? E.g., try setting $p=q=2$, and solving the resulting system for $r,s$, and see if there is a solution.

[EDIT] See Opalg's post below for a correction.

Thanks Ackbach for your reply.

Opalg said:
...We are left with the second one, $pqrs\geqslant 81$. But you have also shown that $pqrs\leqslant 81$. Therefore $pqrs = 81$. That implies that equality occurs in the AM-GM inequality, and that only happens when all four quantities are equal. So $p=q=r=s=3$.

Hi Opalg, thank you so much for pointing out that equality holds in the AM-GM inequality only if all of the quantities involved are equal...this is something I have totally forgotten about.:o

I understand it all now! Thanks guys!
 

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