How Can You Effectively Amplify a 868 MHz Signal for Phase Detection?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around methods to effectively amplify a 868 MHz signal for phase detection, specifically focusing on achieving a stable output around -20 dBm for use with a phase detector like the AD8302. Participants explore various amplification techniques, including Automatic Gain Control (AGC) options, and the challenges associated with low power transmission over long distances.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using an inverting gain amplifier with a variable gain controlled by a voltage-controlled potentiometer, estimating low costs for components.
  • Another participant questions the suitability of standard op-amps for 868 MHz applications, recommending specialized amplifiers from suppliers like Mini-Circuits.
  • There is a discussion about the existence and effectiveness of AGC attenuators versus AGC amplifiers, with a participant expressing uncertainty about the functionality of log amplifiers in this context.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of detecting signals from a 10 mW transmitter at distances of up to 2 km, with questions about the signal source and modulation type.
  • A participant mentions that an unmodulated signal may be harder to detect reliably and suggests that some form of modulation could improve signal detection.
  • One participant confirms they are in France and allowed to use the 868 MHz band for Continuous Wave transmission, noting that amplitude modulation (AM) could be suitable for measuring phase differences.
  • Another participant advises that using modulation could enhance immunity to interference, suggesting the use of directional antennas to improve reception at low power levels.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the best methods for amplification and modulation, with no consensus reached on the optimal approach. There are differing opinions on the effectiveness of various amplifier types and the challenges of detecting low power signals over long distances.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the low power level of the transmitter and the potential difficulties in reliably detecting unmodulated signals. There are also concerns about regulatory compliance for continuous transmission in the 868 MHz band.

synMehdi
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I have an Antenna that receives signal coming from a wide band of distances, 10-2000 meters from a 10mW transmitter. I am working with 868 MHz band. What is the cheapest method ( or cheapest circuit ) to amplify this signal with an Automatic Gain Control LNA so that the received signal stays around -20dBm no matter how far the receiver is from the transmitter.
I want to input the amplified signal directly in a phase detector like the AD8302 which has the best performance at around -20dBm.
 
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maybe use an inverting gain amplifier with a pot that responds to voltage, use that for the variable gain. So look into op amps (if you haven't already) and voltage controlled potentiometers.

The amp should be ~$3-5, the fixed resistor should be about 10 cents, and the pot, I'm not sure, but I would think less than $5.
 
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synMehdi said:
I have an Antenna that receives signal coming from a wide band of distances, 10-2000 meters from a 10mW transmitter. I am working with 868 MHz band. What is the cheapest method ( or cheapest circuit ) to amplify this signal with an Automatic Gain Control LNA so that the received signal stays around -20dBm no matter how far the receiver is from the transmitter.
I want to input the amplified signal directly in a phase detector like the AD8302 which has the best performance at around -20dBm.

BiGyElLoWhAt said:
look into op amps

868MHz is pretty high for an opamp circuit...

Instead, have a look at the amplifiers available from Mini-Circuits and similar suppliers -- http://www.minicircuits.com/homepage/homepage.html

I don't know if they have AGC-type amps available, though. You might consider using a fixed gain amp with a variable attenuator stage after it...
 
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Is that beyond the response of op amps? Didn't realize that if that's the case.
 
Yeah, standard opamps are usually used in the audio range, and maybe up to 1MHz or so. Especially for low-noise RF gain amps, you usually use specialized amplifier circuits.
 
Thank you for your answers.
Do Automatic Gain Control attenuators exist? Are they a better solution rather than AGC amplifiers? I thought of a log amp but I'm not sure about it, Do they compress the signal Gain?
I thought that the ISM band would have many relatively cheap components and modules, but I can't find anything suited for me.
 
synMehdi said:
10-2000 meters from a 10mW transmitter.

BTW, that is a pretty low power level to be trying to detect at a 2km distance. What is the signal source? What is the modulation?
 
berkeman said:
BTW, that is a pretty low power level to be trying to detect at a 2km distance. What is the signal source? What is the modulation?
My fault, I was not sure about that and I'm new to this. The thing is that I haven't decided the transmitter yet, It will work as a beacon, It won't carry any information so no modulation is applied (?).
 
synMehdi said:
My fault, I was not sure about that and I'm new to this. The thing is that I haven't decided the transmitter yet, It will work as a beacon, It won't carry any information so no modulation is applied (?).

What country are you in? What are the regulations for that 868MHz band? Are you allowed to do a continuous transmission of an unmodulated signal?

BTW, an unmodulated signal will be harder to reliably detect at the receiver. If there is some modulation (even just CW), it makes it easier to pull the signal out of the noise for weak signals...
 
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I live in France and I'm allowed to use this band and yes it is a Continuous Wave transmission.
Anyways for what I want to use, AM also should work fine because I just want two measure the phase difference ( difference of ToA ) between to antennas.
 
  • #12
synMehdi said:
I live in France and I'm allowed to use this band and yes it is a Continuous Wave transmission.
Anyways for what I want to use, AM also should work fine because I just want two measure the phase difference ( difference of ToA ) between to antennas.
If you are looking for low level signals, you would be far better to use some modulation and then synchronously detect that modulation. It will give much better immunity to interference than just plain Carrier Wave.
Can you use a directional antenna for this? Even if you want an omnidirectional horizontal pattern, you can get some useful gain by using suitable a vertical array. Reliable reception at such a distance with such low transmitter power is quite a tall order. You need all the help you can give it.
 
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