How do plasma particles interact with a magnetic field?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the interaction of plasma particles, including ions, electrons, and neutral particles, with a steady-state magnetic field. Participants explore the deflection of plasma ejected from a plasma torch in the presence of permanent magnets, specifically focusing on the angle of deflection in the y-direction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant queries how plasma particles interact with a magnetic field and seeks to determine the deflection angle when plasma is ejected in a specific direction.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the original poster's educational background and familiarity with relevant concepts, such as vector calculus and the Lorentz Force.
  • A participant mentions the complexity of fluid dynamics at higher plasma densities and suggests using the Lorentz Force for simple calculations at low densities.
  • The original poster clarifies their background and expresses interest in understanding the collective behavior of plasma at high densities, proposing a degree of ionization as a variable.
  • One participant suggests treating the plasma as a thermal gas of charged particles to estimate how their motion is affected by the magnetic field, while also considering feedback effects.
  • Another participant discusses the mass differences between ions and protons, the conditions for plasma jets to penetrate magnetic fields, and the relationship between kinetic energy density and magnetic energy density.
  • Questions are raised regarding the conditions under which particles will remain attached to magnetic field lines versus being deflected, as well as the implications of induced electric fields in the Lorentz force equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints and hypotheses regarding the behavior of plasma in magnetic fields, with no consensus reached on the specific outcomes or equations to use for determining deflection angles.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the problem, including the need to consider factors such as plasma density, temperature, and the potential for induced electric fields, which may affect the interactions being discussed.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying plasma physics, magnetohydrodynamics, or related fields in engineering and physics, particularly in the context of plasma behavior in magnetic fields.

rca3g7
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How does plasma particles (ions, electrons, neutral particles as a whole) interact with an applied steady-state magnetic field? If you have plasma at atmospheric pressure ejected from a plasma torch in the z-axis direction (upwards/north), how will two permanent magnets, axially aligned N-S to N-S in the x-direction (left to right across the page/screen) interact with the plasma to deflect it, specifically, at what angle would the plasma be deflected at in the y-direction?
 
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rca3g7 said:
How does plasma particles (ions, electrons, neutral particles as a whole) interact with an applied steady-state magnetic field? If you have plasma at atmospheric pressure ejected from a plasma torch in the z-axis direction (upwards/north), how will two permanent magnets, axially aligned N-S to N-S in the x-direction (left to right across the page/screen) interact with the plasma to deflect it, specifically, at what angle would the plasma be deflected at in the y-direction?
Welcome to the PF. :smile:

Your Profile page says that you have a Master's degree, and are working on your PhD. From your question, I'm guessing that your MS degree is not in Physics or Engineering? Can you please tell us a bit more about your educational background? Have you learned vector calculus yet? That would help us a lot in answering your questions about plasmas and magnetic fields. Thanks.

Also, it's helpful to know what density of a plasma you are talking about. At very low plasma densities, you may just be able to use the Lorentz Force for simple calculations (are you familiar with that equation?).

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/imgmag/lorfor.gif
lorfor.gif


At higher densities, you have to deal with some pretty complex fluid dynamics effects, as addressed in the classic Plasma Physics textbook by Chen (and others).

Finally, is this question from your homework?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/3319223089/?tag=pfamazon01-20

41kH2Wt7XFL._SX313_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 

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Thank you for the reply! I am a PhD candidate in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering. I do have Chen’s book as it was the first place I turned to in attempting to answer this question (not a homework problem). I am familiar with the formula you proposed however, it is for single particles perturbed by an electric and/or magnetic field. I am more so trying to expand on the problem of what happens to plasma (as a collective group of ions, electrons, and heavy/neutral particles) at atmospheric pressure, with a high number density upwards of 10^21 persay in LTE or, based off Dalton’s law of partial pressures, having a degree of ionization of 10% let’s say as a sufficient yet arbitrary value.

My goal is to determine what is the best way to approach this problem, and if possible, an equation or system of equations which would allow me to determine the deflection angle of the plasma should it be deflected by an external steady state magnetic field.

Most information on this (magnetically deflected arcs) seems to be oriented towards transferred arcs or free-burning arcs and not towards non-transferred atmospheric pressure plasmas.

I kept my post vague initially in an effort to not hinder views or thwart help on the subject matter so I hope this clairification makes sense. Again, thank you for your help.
 
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That does sound interesting for sure. Unfortunately I haven't really dealt with this kind of thing, so I don't know precisely how it's done. I do know that what you're looking for is likely to fall under the header of plasma hydrodynamics.

All that said, one way to try to make headway might be to treat the plasma as if it were a thermal gas of charged particles. If you did that, you'd have a distribution to use for the momenta of the individual particles, which could be used to estimate how the motions of the particles would be changed by the application of a magnetic field. You may have to consider feedback effects, where motion of the plasma changes the electromagnetic field.
 
To continue the discussion:

The mass of the ions are much greater than the mass of the protons. If by assuming they are in LTE thus having the same temperature thus the same velocity, their respective interaction with the magnetic field differs. Some interesting things I have come across states that for a plasma jet to penetrate into a traverse magnetic field, the kinetic energy density of the plasma jet must overcome the magnetic energy density of the transverse magnetic field:

gif.gif


Should the magnetic field be strong enough, the particles will become entrapped as in the case with magnetic mirrors.

When dealing with the Lorentz force equation if there is no externally applied electric field does E=0 in the Lorentz equation or, because of the existence of both electrons and ions, is there an induced electric field that must be taken into consideration and thus a self induced magnetic field?

When solving the Lorentz force equation you can set

gif.gif


which can be used to then relate to the centripetal force and thus deduce the radius of the orbit of gyration of the particles about the magnetic field line.

Is there some way to determine if the particles will stay "attached" to the magnetic field lines or rather be slingshot around them thus producing a deflection angle from their incident trajectory along the x-direction? In other words, what requirement is there that a particle has to gyrate around a magnetic field line?
 

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