How does a permanent magnet lift iron filings

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of how a permanent magnet is able to lift iron filings, particularly focusing on the nature of work done by magnetic fields. Participants explore theoretical implications, the mechanics of magnetic forces, and the underlying physics principles involved.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that magnetic fields do no work on charged particles, citing the Lorentz force law as a basis for this claim.
  • Others argue that while magnetic forces may not do work directly on charged particles, they can influence the motion of other forces, suggesting that the work is done by external agents like generators or motors.
  • A participant introduces the idea that magnetic forces can do work on magnetic charges, although they acknowledge that free magnetic charges do not exist.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of magnetic dipoles and how they relate to the forces exerted by magnets, with some participants questioning the existence of magnetic monopoles and their implications.
  • Several participants engage in a technical examination of the magnetic dipole moment of neutrons and the role of quarks in this context, raising questions about the source of magnetic moments in particles.
  • One participant references a specific text to support their argument regarding the work done by magnetic fields, while others challenge the interpretations of that text.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether magnetic fields do work or not, with multiple competing views presented throughout the discussion. The nature of magnetic forces and their effects on particles remains contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions of magnetic work and the implications of magnetic monopoles, highlighting the complexity of the topic and the limitations of current understanding.

  • #31
Magnetic fields ain't like a hammer hitting a nail since the hammer does work.

Magnetic fields are like the normal force on a ramp. It doesn't do any work since it's perpendicular to the displacement.
 
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  • #32
time is important.

to EJavier.
Then please explain radiation where both fields are normal to displacement but obviously do work (equally) per the photon. They do work BUT disappear because the stored energy is used . A purely static and unchanging field does no work , a changing field gives or accepts energy,- like a spring, an accellerating field gives rise to radiation , all of which you could equally say about the electrostatic field.
In a tuned circuit comprising a capacitor and an inductor which is oscillating energy is continually exchanged from one to the other in both potential and kinetic forms -- the introduction of a resistance causes an exponential decrease in oscillation as energy is used -- both fields decrease as work is done producing heat. The cap' and ind' voltages are both normal to the current( in the sinusoidal sense) so they produce no internal heat but they have changing energy, represented by the resistance heat.
But I agree that that is a non-conservative system in that heat is a random motion.
However the photon does not have to produce heat it could release (say) electrons from a metal surface exchanging energy to kinetic of the electron.
The normal force on a ramp does work -- it compresses the object which is stored energy - which can be released if the object falls off the ramp.
 

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