How Does Faraday's Law Explain Zero Work by Magnetic Forces in Motional EMFs?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Aubin
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Faraday's law Law
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the application of Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction, specifically addressing the concept of induced electromotive force (emf) in a conducting loop moving within a magnetic field. Participants explore the relationship between magnetic forces and work, particularly the assertion that magnetic forces do no work, and how this relates to the work done to maintain motion in the loop.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Aubin expresses confusion regarding how the emf for a moving conducting loop can be derived from the closed loop integral of (v cross B) dot dl, given that magnetic forces do no work.
  • Another participant clarifies that the magnetic force does not perform work on charged particles, providing a mathematical expression to support this claim.
  • This participant introduces the concept of relative velocities of particles within the conductor and discusses how external forces are responsible for the work done to maintain the loop's motion.
  • Aubin acknowledges the explanation and connects it to the idea that the work done must equal the energy dissipated in the circuit.
  • A reference to a pedagogical paper on electromagnetic induction is provided as a resource for further understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the notion that magnetic forces do not do work, but the discussion includes varying interpretations of how this relates to the work done by external forces in maintaining motion in the conducting loop. No consensus is reached on the implications of these relationships.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the mathematical expressions involved in the work-energy relationship and the roles of different forces, but some assumptions and definitions remain implicit and may affect the clarity of the arguments presented.

Aubin
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Hello,

I am currently trying to really come to grips with electromagnetic induction and Faraday's law.

The text I'm using is Young and Freedman's University Physics, 12th edition.

How can the emf for a conducting loop moving in a magnetic field be given by the closed loop integral of (v cross B) dot dl where dl is an infinitesimal loop element, when (the way I understand it) that essentially represents work per unit charge done by the MAGNETIC force? And of course we know that the magnetic force does zero work. This is where I'm confused. Also, when we do work to keep such a loop moving, we move it against a magnetic force, how come (as my book says) the magnetic force does no (negative) work as we move this wire?

Thanks

Aubin
 
Physics news on Phys.org
What an interesting question!

As you say, the magnetic force never does any work on the particle, because:

dW = q(vxB).ds = q(vxB).vdt = 0

Here, ds is an element of the particle’s path.

Now let's consider the particles constrained to move along a conductor. Let the velocity through space in our frame of reference of an element dl of the conductor be vcond, and let the velocity, dl/dt of the particles relative to the conductor be vrel.

Then our formula becomes

dW = q{(vcond+vrel)xB}.(vcond+vrel)dt = 0

The terms involving just vcond in the brackets either side of the dot clearly amount to zero, as do the terms with just vrel. So we are left with the heterogeneous terms

q{vcondxB}.vreldt + q{vrelxB}.vconddt = 0

that is

q{vcondxB}.dl + q{vrelxB}.vconddt = 0

Note that here we're using dl as originally defined - as a directed element of the conductor, rather than as a displacement of the particle through space (for which we're using ds).

Now, in the second term, q{vrelxB} is the ‘BIL’ motor effect force contributed by q on the element of the conductor, so - {vrelxB} is the external force needed to keep the element moving at constant speed, so - q{vrelxB}.vconddt is the work an external agency has to do to keep the wire moving at constant speed. So:

Work done by external agency = - q{vrelxB}.vconddt
=q {vcondxB}.dl
= work done pushing q along the conductor

Hope you like this. It shows that the work done pushing q through the conductor does not come from the magnetic force, but from another, external force.
 
Last edited:
Yes, that makes sense, thank you very much. (Took a while to digest because my vector algebra was a bit rusty from last term). This also shows very clearly why the work done must equal the energy dissipated in the circuit doesn't it?
 
A very nice pedagogical paper on the subject is

P. J. Scanlon, R. N. Henriksen, J. R. Allen, Approaches to Electromagnetic Induction, Am. J. Phys. 37, 698 (1969)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
7K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K