How does the universe so conspire that entropy increase?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of entropy increase in the universe, particularly focusing on the second law of thermodynamics and the probabilistic nature of irreversible processes. Participants explore theoretical implications, mathematical reasoning, and philosophical questions related to entropy and time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references Schroeder's textbook, explaining that irreversible processes are overwhelmingly probable rather than inevitable, using the example of heat transfer between objects.
  • Another participant discusses the improbability of all molecules of an ideal gas spontaneously migrating to one side of a box, emphasizing that such arrangements become increasingly unlikely with larger numbers of molecules.
  • A different viewpoint suggests questioning why the universe had low entropy at its inception, implying a need for further exploration of initial conditions.
  • One participant challenges the need for speculation, advocating for clarification from the original poster (OP) regarding their question.
  • Another participant reiterates the importance of understanding the OP's intent, suggesting that different perspectives could provide valuable insights.
  • A participant states that the second law of thermodynamics applies to adiabatically isolated systems and does not necessarily pertain to the universe as a whole, implying a lack of conspiracy in entropy increase.
  • One participant raises a question about the apparent asymmetry of entropy increase in relation to the time-symmetric nature of physical laws, suggesting a philosophical inquiry into temporal directionality.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of entropy and its implications, with no consensus reached on the underlying reasons for entropy increase or the initial conditions of the universe. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various theoretical frameworks and examples, but the discussion includes unresolved assumptions about the nature of entropy and its relationship to the universe's initial state.

stedwards
Messages
416
Reaction score
46
How does the universe so conspire such that ΔS≥0, entropy increases?
 
Science news on Phys.org
Schroeder's textbook "An Introduction to Thermal Physics" takes a whole chapter to explain this in detail mathematically. But the basic idea can be stated in a few sentences from the beginning of that chapter:

Irreversible processes
(that is, processes for which ΔS > 0)
are not inevitable, they are simply overwhelmingly probable. For instance, when heat flows from a hot object to a cooler object, the energy is just moving around more or less randomly. After we wait a while, the chances are overwhelming that we will find the energy distributed more "uniformly" (in a sense that I will make precise later) among all parts of a system.

Suppose we have one mole (6.02 x 1023 molecules) of an ideal gas in a box. If all the gas molecules were to spontaneously migrate to the left half of the box, that would represent a decrease in entropy. However, this is highly unlikely. If the probability that any single molecule is in the left half of the box is 0.5, then the probability that all of them (one mole of them) are in the left half, and a perfect vacuum in the other half, is ##0.5^{6.02 \times 10^{23}}##, which is a fantastically tiny number. Even if there were only 100 molecules in the box, the probability

Schroeder said:
is iess than 10-30, so you would have to check a trillion times per second for the age of the universe before finding such an arrangement even once.

However, if there are two molecules in the box, the probability is 0.25 that both of them are in the left half; if there are three, the probability is 0.125; etc. With a small number of molecules, it is rather common for entropy to decrease; with a large number (or even a fairly modest number), it is so rare that we might as well say "never" for all practical purposes.

Going further, if we start with all the molecules in the left side of the box, it is generally overwhelmingly probable that they will "spread out" to fill the entire box more or less uniformly within a very short period of time, increasing the entropy of the system in the process.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Qwertywerty
Perhaps the question to ask is why it had/has as little entropy then/now as it did/does...
 
Why not let the OP tell us what he means instead of guessing?
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Why not let the OP tell us what he means instead of guessing?
Don't know whether this is directed at post 3. Here I was suggesting that another viewpoint might give insight. There was no attempt to guess anything.
 
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of an adiabatically isolated system (much smaller than the universe) can only increase. It makes no statement about the entropy of the universe. So no conspiracy there.
 
With the laws of physics apparently symmetric in time (more correctly, CPT), why should entropy increase have a preferred temporal direction?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
6K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K