Why does the entropy of the Universe always increase?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of entropy in the universe, specifically why the entropy of the universe is said to always increase. Participants explore the implications of the second law of thermodynamics and the nature of spontaneous processes, with a focus on theoretical and conceptual aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about why the entropy of the universe must always be positive and question the conditions under which entropy remains constant or increases.
  • One participant suggests that a better question might be why the universe began in a low-entropy state, implying that the tendency towards higher entropy is a natural progression.
  • Another participant provides a thermodynamic definition of entropy, discussing the relationship between heat transfer and entropy changes in systems, emphasizing that the entropy lost by a hot object is less than the entropy gained by a cold object.
  • There is a challenge posed to identify any spontaneous process where the entropy of an isolated system does not increase, indicating a search for examples that might contradict the general understanding of entropy increase.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express confusion and seek clarification on the topic, indicating that multiple competing views and interpretations exist regarding the nature of entropy and its implications in the universe. No consensus is reached on the underlying reasons for the increase in entropy.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the lack of specific examples of processes with non-increasing entropy and the dependence on definitions of entropy and thermodynamic principles. The discussion does not resolve the complexities surrounding the initial low-entropy state of the universe.

Est120
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i don't really understand why S of the universe must be always positive,i know that only reversible process have constant entropy but why real proceses always increase S in the universe?
sorry for bad english I am not from USA or UK
 
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Est120 said:
i don't really understand why S of the universe must be always positive,i know that only reversible process have constant entropy but why real proceses always increase S in the universe?
sorry for bad english I am not from USA or UK
Can you think of any spontaneous process on any scale whatsoever for which the entropy of an isolated system does not increase? Just identify one such process.
 
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There are several different ways to look at it. One definition of "entropy" is the thermodynamic definition:

##\Delta S = \dfrac{\Delta Q_{rev}}{T}##

where ##\Delta S## is the change in entropy and ##\Delta Q_{rev}## is the heat added to the system (or removed, if ##\Delta Q## is negative) and where ##T## is the temperature (in Kelvin). (The subscript "rev" means "reversible"; basically, it's the heat that would be added if you had made the change slowly and reversibly.)

So if you transfer heat from a hot object (one with a large value of ##T##) to a cold object (one with a small value of T), then the entropy change of the hot object is negative, because it's losing heat, so ##\Delta Q## is negative. The entropy change of the cold object is positive (because ##\Delta Q## is positive, since it's gaining heat). But since entropy is inversely proportional to temperature, the amount of entropy lost to the hot system is smaller than the amount of energy gained by the cold system.

So saying that entropy always increases boils down to saying that if you put a hot object into contact with a cold object, the hot object gets cooler and the cold object gets warmer. If you want to know why THAT always happens, you've got to go a little deeper.
 
Est120 said:
i don't really understand why S of the universe must be always positive,i know that only reversible process have constant entropy but why real proceses always increase S in the universe?
sorry for bad english I am not from USA or UK

A better question would be "Why did the universe begin in a low-entropy state?". The constant increase in entropy is just because a system in a random state is much more likely to be in a high-entropy state that in a low-entropy one.
 

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